Live Syncing with external gear.

seppe2097 · Post by **seppe2097** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:37 pm

Hello,

I have some questions about midi sync.

My setup at home is based around a Dual Core PC with an RME Fireface 400 and a Novation Remote SL. I use Ableton Live 6 and NI Komplete 4 for my music production and I am very happy with my setup. Rock solid performance and all down to 4ms overall latency, so no complaints!

One of my friends on the other hand, his setup is based on a P4 laptop, Yamaha O1X as audio and midi interface, a Virus TI, NI Komplete 4 and a Machinedrum. He is getting really depressed by now because after hours and hours of work, he's still not able to sync his beloved Machinedrum to his laptop with Live 6.

We used the MIDI ports on the 01X, the Virus, the Novation Remote, NI Kore and even the RME to get the MD synced as Slave but nothing worked! We always get that jumping BPM in the display of the MD. But, if we make the MD the Master and connect to my RME and Live 6, it all works as a breeze. I can change the tempo in the MD and Live follows very smoothly.

If we sync just the hardware; Virus and MD, we get a nice sync and everything works fine. But from the moment you bring in a computer with a software sequencer that wants to act as the Master, it seems your asking for trouble.

In an ideal world, the Machinedrum and the other gear should simply lock to Live and let it be the Master. Also, for recording solid audio samples from the MD into Live, a stable midi clock is necessary, no?

Whe are getting pretty desperate over here because we tried a lot of gear and setups, emailed a lot to different support sites and forums, but still got no decent answer or solution for our sync problem. Some say it's a computer- hardware related problem. I tried 4 different computers, no Mac so far, but PC's with different chipsets and they all have the same problem, so that seems unlikely to me.

Does anyone know something about Elektron’s Turbomidi? Is that what we need to get this solved? It looks like it will speed up our jumping BPM, but is it actually going to fix our problem?

Also, i noticed people having trouble with the TI in Live. I have not used it on my dual core PC so far but on the P4 Laptop, we have signal dropping out, notes playing out of tune, sloppy arps and even no sync!!! It seems like the TI won't listen to what Live is telling it what to do. Anyone out there who had the same problem and who knows how to fix it?

Quitte a lot, i know but all your help is more than welcome!

Thanks and all the best,

Seppe

Intel Dual Core 2,4Ghz
2048MB RAM 533Mhz
RME Fireface 400
Novation Remote SL61
Native Instruments Komplete 4 + Kore
Live 6
Mackie HR 824 Actives

pip · Post by **pip** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:23 am

I've sadly spent much of the weekend trying to sync Live with an MC-909 and an MS-2000. It was simple in concept...

What exactly have you tried so far? Sorry I've never used an MD, but it looks like there's some firmware updates available for it; have you tried those yet?

After the general hardware troubleshooting, I'd suggest firing up MIDI-OX (midiox.com) and looking at what exactly is being passed through your midi ports. Midi Clock data is very bandwidth-intensive, and exceeding what your interface/devices can handle will result in errors. Is there a chance you're sending too much down the pipe? Maybe some stray sysex from somewhere?

MIDI-OX can also generate clock, so you can try using that as a master (go to View > Midi Sync...) and set both Live and the MD as slave. (You might need to "yoke" it in software to send the clock to Live.)

This will hopefully at least narrow down the problem to software or hardware.
Good luck

EddieJ · Post by **EddieJ** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:49 am

There is a very long thread dedicated to the problem of MIDI sync.
The short answer is Ableton is working on the issue. They are having trouble making Ableton work with every MIDI interface/ computer combination out there.
At any rate, Ableton Live can be slaved to the Machinedrum. This will give you a stable clock and some nice, physical transport buttons. However, for MIDI synced effects, here's what I had to do:

EddieJ wrote:A little about the bug before I go on:
Many of us PC users have found that Ableton Live is a little less than ideal when sending MIDI clock to external gear. This is especially noticeable when using external sequencers, drum machines, arps, and tempo synced delays and LFO's.
I managed to finagle a work around.
It involves software known as MIDI OX. MIDIOX is powerful stuff, but I only use it in this single application.
You can get MIDIOX at :
http://www.midiox.com/
Here is what I do.
I use my ESX as the master clock. In MIDI OX, I route clock from the ESX to the other outputs on my USB-MIDI interface, in this case my MIDISPORT 4x4.
I then disable all sync settings in Ableton except for taking sync in from my ESX.
In this picture, the ESX is coming in on input C. I route it to the outputs A, B and D.

Each of those blocks in the paths is a MIDI filter. In there, I deselect everything except for the clock:

While this doesn't mean I've fixed Ableton's clock (or cleaned their clocks for that matter), this method means I can get good clock to all my synths while still sending and receiving notes and other MIDI info in Ableton Live.
In fact, this has the added benefit of sending the reset that Live doesn't transmit, allowing my mod sequencer in the MS2000R to go back to the beginning. It also lets me have clock when Ableton Live isn't playing, something I didn't have before.

seppe2097 · Post by **seppe2097** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:09 am

Hello,

I just installed the MIDI OX but still no steady sync.

The BPM keeps jumping in the MD's display and OX can't generate a steady clock itself as i can see in it's MIDI sync window.

When i use the MD as the master, i can perfectly record and loop audio but in reverse it's not possible due to that unsteady clock.

So i can record my material but, lets say in a live situation, i still can't use Live as the Master.

Any suggestions here?

Thanks and all the best,

S.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:42 am

the TI problems are known,

people have been complaining since the demise of the amiga about midi clock in computers, so you are not alone.

whats wrong with using hardware master?

seppe2097 · Post by **seppe2097** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:01 pm

Hey,

There's nothing wrong with a hardware master indeed...

But i just want my gear to work perfectly with each other...

I noticed i am not alone indeed. Midi exists for 20 years now, but how come it is so difficult to make simple midi transmition between and soft- and hardware???

And what about Syncing two computers running Live? Does that work fine, any expirience someone?

Also, there must be folks out there who don't have this problem. So there are setups that can be considered as 'reference setups', no? If any one on this planet has one, please let me know, i can't wait!!!

Why can't software and hardware-developers create a standard/reference hard-software combination???

Thanks,

S.

seppe2097 · Post by **seppe2097** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:04 pm

Oh, and by the way.

Are their people who use the TI in other sequencers? I only have Live so i don't know about it's behaviour in other sequencers...

Or is it mainly a TI/Live - problem?

l-rs · Post by **l-rs** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:46 pm

I had problems getting my 303 to sync with Live (and a lot of other programs, though back in my Impulse Tracker days years and years ago it synced fine

)

Anyway - I now use my TR-707 as the external master. I start and stop Live using the 707 and it works rock solid now. So, couldn't your friend use his Machinedrum as the master?

I can relate to getting down by syncing problems, but since I took the clock "out of the computer" so to speak I'm much happier.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:49 pm

Live > Live can be problematic, many people use 2x Live laptops synced to a master external clock.

EddieJ · Post by **EddieJ** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:28 pm

seppe2097 wrote:Hello,

I just installed the MIDI OX but still no steady sync.

The BPM keeps jumping in the MD's display and OX can't generate a steady clock itself as i can see in it's MIDI sync window.

When i use the MD as the master, i can perfectly record and loop audio but in reverse it's not possible due to that unsteady clock.

So i can record my material but, lets say in a live situation, i still can't use Live as the Master.

Any suggestions here?

Thanks and all the best,

S.

MIDIOX doesn't generate the clock. I use a hardware clock.

Here is the solution, plain and simple:
USE A HARDWARE CLOCK.

Use a hardware clock like the one in the Machinedrum. Use MIDIOX to pass the clock to the other gear and use LIVE to send the notes and controller data. Don't let LIVE send or pass clock, either as a master or a slave, it will screw it up in both situations. Therefore, in LIVE, deactivate all sync settings EXCEPT FOR the "sync in" from whatever is your clock.

In my setup, every piece of gear I have gets its clock from my ESX.

Live Syncing with external gear.

Live Syncing with external gear.

MIDI Sync Woes