why do dancetracks need to be mono-compatible?

[cubehog]

Or don´t they have to be?

I made a remix of a rockband and they wanted pads and wide sounds and normally I would go after these sounds because I am a "pad guy".
I avoided it this time saying to the guys I wanted to restrict myself in the choice of sounds to make it "dancefloor-compatible".

I listened to pretty much high volumes under my headphones to "recreate the effect of ear fatigue".
I´ve noticed it is better to stay with the beat as a fundament and to use not so much sounds. Fine with me, less work.

However, when I switch the utility plug-in set to width control = 0 then my stereofield collapses and the kick, snare, mainvox are the main elements (no panning on them)
standing out in the mix and everything else sounds thinner.
No nice thick bass sounds and the hihat is lowered in volumes.

In the bridge I have massive problems with phase cancellation reaching never 0 but more likely the -1 spot.
My basses are always massively distored waveforms which are then filtered (d´n´b-approach)
I´ve become a lover of M/S-Eqing and compressing and I´ve noticed that the room on the side signal in the bottom end can be filled with the low freq from the bass sounds.
Works quite nicely in stereo but is poison for mono compatibility.
So this seems to be a no-go for clubtracks. But why?

Are there that many PA systems which are run just mono?
Why do you want to keep mono compatibility when the majority of PA´s is driven in stereo?
Why is it necessary to be mono-centric?
When is the point you regard your track to be degraded when played back in mono?

I´ve noticed in radio pop music this is even desirable. Leave the drums and the voice for grandmas mono receiver and the blarring iphone kids
because these are the most important elements to them and go with the wide experience in the stereo realm for the "music lovers".
--- "Oops, I´ve never heard this nice sound on your kitchen radio." ---

However I´ve noticed that many professional mixes are not degraded that much but even though have a huge stereo image. Apparat songs on Walls have a huge stereo spread.
The latest Notwist album works extensively with this stereo field manipulation on some songs.

Telefon Tel Aviv´s Arcadia-rmx from Apparat is the perfect example. Huge stereo spread with way more output on the hard left and hard right than in the middle. At least I perceive it this way.
Drums are set to be in the middle and everything else, even the pulsating basses are "kind of more than just stereo". They use different lines to evoke the stereo image.
Why don´t they have this massive problems and still the sound is quite ok in the mono realm? They use basslines in the same spectrum with an overlap in frequency and notes.

How do they achive that clarity?
And isn´t one stereofile with the exact same setting in the panning not the same as rendering 2 monofiles with the exact settings after you put them together in one mix?

I´ve analyzed my material and I´m probably not bad at mixing. At least nobody complained (I´ve got a pair of ears in this regard:) )
and most of my clients were more than satisfied saying I´ve understood "their way to express their music".

So I cannot be free of any talent regarding mixing. But lately this is killing me. I´ve uploaded the questionable file on soundcloud.

http://soundcloud.com/cubehog/corridors ... e-original

Hope it wasn´t too long. But I guess many others want to be educated too. Maybe the Live-PA-guys or some Dj´s with producing skills can share some of their experiences
and give some useful tips.

Ivo

[3dot...]

high volumes /small venues/wrong speaker placement...
where basically the stereo-field is ruined.. and 1 speaker interferes with the other (phase cancellation in the air)
this causes the track to sound not as planned...
so.. you need to check if your stereo effects are working well in mono

[SubFunk]

and the majority of club PAs is only mono to start with anyways.

mono compatibility for club tracks is from utter importance.

and aslo if they are stereo, only a very few people can be in the 'sweet' spot and for the rest it is then a nightmare flakey sound.

[cubehog]

Alright. So I have to rethink in terms of club. Everything mono now at start. We have a nice catalog why here in the forum. So I will incorporate this in my forthcoming work.

Leaves the question of this wide spread stereo field and still sounding good in mono.

At least I am convinced to do "more mono" but I have to redo the balancing in that remix.

thanks to you guys

der ivo

[Angstrom]

I don't make dance track anymore, but my approach has always been to aim for stereo width, while providing something for the mono listener to fall back on, something which is a stable core of the track. Also consider the person listening on a 2 inch speaker setup, I always try to make sure the the core elements of a track are at least perceptible on the horriblest systems.

EG: imagine you have a core riff which you want to give stereo width, one idea is to create some short reverb on it, and phase invert the left side of the reverb (and only the reverb). Now on a home setup this will have a nice width, but on a nasty mono-ized system the phase inversion of L&R will be summed, and the reverb will vanish ... which is quite handy in a nasty club situation where room resonances can make a reverby track into mush.

If you think ahead and choose your techniques you can still create a nice wide mix which has some mono compatibility at the core, rather than a mix which turns into a mush with holes in when played on a low-grade system.

[sweetjesus]

just throwing my 2 cents...

ive recently been making stuff that would most likely sound horrid on a mono system.

haven't been to a venue which the sound is obviously "mono" in the last 4 years...

make it stereo, make it fkn big!!

[3dot...]

not saying you shouldn't make it stereo.. just be sure the mix works in mono as well.. and you're set !

[SubFunk]

not saying you shouldn't make it stereo.. just be sure the mix works in mono as well.. and you're set !

+1

a nice side effect of making something not mono but mono compatible is that it automatically will sound tighter and will have more impact, 'pure' stereo mixes are usually fluffy. and will defo sound shite on any type of PA. it's only 'cool' for headphones or well set up home stereos.

you need a backbone in a mix and built around it.

[Angstrom]

not saying you shouldn't make it stereo.. just be sure the mix works in mono as well.. and you're set !

exactly

[sweetjesus]

not saying you shouldn't make it stereo.. just be sure the mix works in mono as well.. and you're set !

+1

a nice side effect of making something not mono but mono compatible is that it automatically will sound tighter and will have more impact, 'pure' stereo mixes are usually fluffy. and will defo sound shite on any type of PA. it's only 'cool' for headphones or well set up home stereos.

you need a backbone in a mix and built around it.

I've found that having the non core-groove elements as exaggerated, mono hating faux stereo doesn't sound weak on any of the PA's I've used..

The main thing I use stereo tricks for is not for width, but actual sound design. You can use the phasing as a pretty neat effect if done right.

[cubehog]

Thanks to you guys.

I did the remix again from the ground up. I will try to upload the file in the next 2 days. It will sound differently.

I tried this technique explained from innerstate here on the forum. I tried to make it sound good in mono and suprisingly enough it was child´s play when I switched off the mono button.
I did a lot with the M/S-Eq (also EQ8). Building 2 parallel chains in an audiorack to be able to control the level of mid and side signals independently.

Great tip with this reverb technique. I will use it on my own music.

There is this interesting phenomenon with the basses. As long as I keep the Side signal above 200 Hz there isn´t so much phase cancellation.
I tried to spread the low freq with a L/R-Eq-combo where I assigned different freq (50-70 Hz to L 70-90 Hz to R) and it did make a little effect.
So there seems to be an interesting space for experimenting with less complex material for a start. I didn´t use it for this remix, but it´s worth investigating.

For now I figured my remix will be tighter and feels more stereo, because I leveled the signals in mono and the side signals are pretty loud now.
Now it´s only a matter of adjusting the side-signal levelwise to the mono signal.

Bunch of nice fellows here.

I didn´t find the thread link here, but get this "mixing in mono sheet" from innerstate.
Maybe preaching to the choir here, but I totally underestimated this approach. It works for me now.

der Ivo