IMPOSSIBLE TO SYNC OUTBOARD TO LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
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Timur
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Post by Timur » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:21 am

I did setup everything properly and RTFM! ;) And no, I have not been "silenced" by anyone except for me having better things to do than running into walls. Atm I'm trying to get better accoustics out of my room and need to paint a wall for my lady that she first wanted to be pink but now prefers to have red like the rest of the walls. :lol:

I do have to correct myself in that I stated before that Live cannot even handle the full bandwidth of the Midi protocol (3250 bytes/s), it can and does that better than Reaper (and Sonar crashed when I tried). I was stupid before and calculated the amount of Midi bytes wrong, my apologies. :oops:

The number of Midi ports/channels Live can master/handle concurrently depends on several things (unfortunately the Midi Facts Sheet isn't very informative on this part):

- the audio-interface/driver being used
- the audio-buffer size
- the midi-interface/driver being used: Midi latency and jitter is induced by both of these by design! Best results can be obtained via PCI or FW Midi interfaces, USB comes last in that for all my own interfaces (the Remote SL is worst).
- your mainboard, or better the precision timers offered by your mainboard and either Windows' or Live's decision which of those to use for its own timings (only Vista can use the new High Precision Timers of current mainboards)
- wether Midi clips are fired all at once or one after another (with a
- a combination of the aforementioned

(- on Vista Live's performance depends alot on what the rest of your system is busy with. On my system Live is not useable with my Fireface 400 on Vista at all (no Aero trick helping), not even a single audio clip plays without drop-outs. Furthermore Live's CPU load increases when the CPU load of Windows Explorer increases, including ugly drop-outs. No problem running dozends of the same clip in Reaper on Vista. I will contact support of both Ableton and RME to see if they care to look into it.)

Concerning Live as a Midi Master with Midi Clock Sync. Whenever Live's Audio or Midi engine overloads and/or the Midi driver of your interface reaches its limit (both even at low CPU load) it will produce drop-outs on the Midi port, thus the Sync clock becomes unstable. With Midi note/data streams this will also lead to data corruption (like pitch-shift/cc/whatever arriving at your destination Midi instrument when in reality a note on was sent).

This is not only Live's fault, but also attributes to the limits of the drivers. For example, Midi Yoke can handle a maximum of around 4916 bytes/s (the equivalent of playing 128 1/16th Midi notes concurrently at 96 bpm) with both Live and Reaper on my machine, from there on it will start to corrupt data.

3dot if you provide me with your exact setup (and maybe your Live set) I can try to get the most out of it and send it through all my 8 Midi interfaces and three audio-cards to see if any combination works. Generally I wouldn't trust Live to be my Midi Master though, better use an external Midi clock. I tried to make my Remote SL master once, but couldn't make it send Midi commands to Live to make it start playing. Didn't have enough time then though and was only playing around, it ought to work somehow. No problems making my Korg 01/W's internal sequencer a Master Clock with start/stop transports though.

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:54 am

I think people still aren;'t understanding my issue. I'm not using the external instrument plug in, nor am I sending any midi notes to the EMX. Even with a completey empty project, the clock that Live send to the EMX is always delayed by the same amount. Going into the midi preferences and adjusting the clock offset does nothing for me, the audio from the EMX is always off the beat by the same amount. I can set the clock offset to -300ms, or +40ms, and in both cases anything from the Machinedrum or the EMX is recorded late by the same amount. Evne in a completely empty project.

If I try the same thing in Logic 8, it works fine, so I do not believe it's a driver issue.

3dot...
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Post by 3dot... » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:41 am

Timur... Nice to have ya back...
you got me thinking maybe I can 'thin' out a bit of traffic on the outputs via midi-ox...

I'm using ->

mackie emulation ->Midiyoke1->BCRout

User script(1-5)->Midiyoke1->BCRout

(if I use BCRout directly live crashes my system...)

R-5->Midiyoke2->BCRout B ('Sync' on)

Evolver->Multiface out ('Sync' on)


I will experiment a bit with it and see what happens...

I can filter out Clock and RT messages to the 'mackie' output
and connect the R5 to receive midi sync through the Evolver midi Thru...

I'll get back to work....
Image

ausgeno
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Post by ausgeno » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:11 am

Tarekith wrote:the clock that Live send to the EMX is always delayed by the same amount. Going into the midi preferences and adjusting the clock offset does nothing for me, the audio from the EMX is always off the beat by the same amount.
This is really odd, if your config is right then I think your Ableton is broken. Have you got sync turned on for the correct output of whichever device you use to send midi from your PC to your EMX? Are you changing the midi clock delay at that same output?

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:34 am

I am 100% dead positive I am doing this right. I started another thread about this in the past when I first ran into it with my MachineDrum. Oddly enough, the very next day it was working. Then a week later when I went to try again, it wasn't. Something very fishy is going on, as I use the exact same template each time, and nothing else on my system has changed. I had thought it might just be some weird MD bug, but now that i have the EMX, I'm seeing the same thing. Here's what I'm seeing tonight:

My pref's on Take 1, offset at 0, brand new project:

Image

After giving Live 4 bars to settle into the clock, you can the first beat at Bar 5 is slightly late:

Image

Now I adjust the offset to -200:

Image

Strangely, the beat is now ever so slightly MORE late:

Image

Definitely not imagining this. Tried different midi cables even.

ausgeno
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Post by ausgeno » Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:06 am

Yeah that config looks right to me! Thats weird, maybe you have all the MIDI inputs filtered out on the EMX? You could try setting the area on the EMX where you can set which types of MIDI data to filter to all OOOOs if it isn't already. *edit* I think you can forget that step, the clock delay is introduced at Live, not the EMX, my bad.

I used my EMX with a USB <-> MIDI yum-cha cable, and also with the MIDI out on my AK1 and both times I had it setup just like you do but I was able to set the metronome off on Ableton and the EMX and actually change the MIDI delay sync in realtime until they were locked together and then once that was done I never had to adjust my beat-markers again.

Have you tried firing off the two click tracks and seeing if you can DJ them together by changing the clock delay in Ableton and using your ears, or does it just have no effect on the space between the clicks?

-200 is a lot btw, almost into the next beat which might explain your beat positions. My average clock sync delay for the EMX was about -40ms for the yum-cha cable and about -20ms using the AK1.

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:48 am

Have you tried firing off the two click tracks and seeing if you can DJ them together by changing the clock delay in Ableton and using your ears, or does it just have no effect on the space between the clicks?

>>> The whole problem is that no matter what I set the clock delay to, it doesn't change ANYTHING. It makes no difference on the sync between the EMX (or the MD mind you, I'm not seeing this with just one piece of gear) and Live. <<<

-200 is a lot btw, almost into the next beat which might explain your beat positions. My average clock sync delay for the EMX was about -40ms for the yum-cha cable and about -20ms using the AK1.

>>> 200ms is not even close to a whole beat at 120 BPM, that would be closer to around 5,000ms. Here's the other thread where I've discussed this as it relates to the machinedrum and my initial findings:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ock+offset

In general the issues are intermittent, sometimes the clock offset DOES work for me, but I can never pin down what exactly is making it work or not. And not to toot my own horn, but I've been a beta-tester in the past for Access, Roland, Emu, and Audiofile, so I'm well versed in trying to replicate bugs and how to eliminate possible causes one at a time. This is definitely something I'm not able to reproduce consistantly. Proven by the fact that I just now ran the EXACT same test as above, and the clock offset IS working again. WTF? <<<

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:53 am

And on that same note, after a quick restart of my laptop, the offset is once again doing nothing.

I give up.

panners
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Post by panners » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:01 am

Wheres Bounce He knows how to sort this...

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:01 am

Tarekith wrote:And on that same note, after a quick restart of my laptop, the offset is once again doing nothing.

I give up.
did you try www.abletonlivedj.com?
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:04 am

Nah, that guy Condra is the moderator there.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:13 am

Tarekith wrote:Nah, that guy Condra is the moderator there.
so you probably missed the thread on how to have sex with a dolphin.
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 325#664325
and
how to get red wine out of a silk carpet
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85855

both useful, especially going into the weekend and summer coming up.

what's up over at www.bedwettingLiveusers.n00b ?

:P
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

panners
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:26 pm

Post by panners » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:28 am

See the tread is waving . no one can sort this out. wheres bounce he knows on to sort it

ausgeno
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Post by ausgeno » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:32 am

Tarekith wrote:I just now ran the EXACT same test as above, and the clock offset IS working again. WTF?
Tarekith wrote:And on that same note, after a quick restart of my laptop, the offset is once again doing nothing.

I give up.
Holy crap, thats just broken then. I wonder if reinstalling Ableton would fix it. *edit* Just read your other thread, nope reinstall didn't fix. Damn man... thats a tough one.
Last edited by ausgeno on Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:34 am

ausgeno wrote:Holy crap, thats just broken then. I wonder if reinstalling Ableton would fix it.
Been there, done that.

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