For the Pro studios, it all comes down to stability. I used to be a creative director at a Post house and managed 2 Protools (mac), several Avids (PC and Mac), Flame (SGI), and numerous design computers (Mac). PC is really really fast in comparison to Mac. But in the nature of our business when every second count, we just can't afford the computer to breakdown in the middle of the session! Mac has long history in this environment because of the established "PRO" development momentum and stability. With OS X, we almost absolutely for sure that our Macs will not quit while our clients are drinking wine on the couch. PC softwares developement are so amazing these days. But it's TOO difficult to ask the engineer to switch to a more powerful PC when he is booked solid every day. There's no down time in this business unless your account executives are not doing their job! It's not like the engineers are not experimental and open minded, but they cannot really afford the time, the factor of uncertainty and the new learning curve in switching platform!!!! It's already long enough for our engineer to give up OS 9.....PC!?...I don't think I would live long enough to see that day!
But who cares what they use? It's all about what you are comfortable with working in your pajamas in 3 o'clock in the morning, right!? People have been making great music with Atari. We are in the revolution of music making! You just can't compare your fast PC laptop in your small bedroom to the typical big-air-conditioned-leather-couch-dimmed-halogen-light-free-lunch-red-wine studio, can you!? It's a different game!!!!!!
If Mac's are so "underpowered"...
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kent_sandvik
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:45 am
Yes, stability is important in a studio. I don't want to fix broken device drivers, strange viruses and adware sneaking in through Internet Explorer, 'OS rot' that kicks in after 1+ years of using Win2000 or XP (my laptop here at work is a carefully administered Win2000 Pro, and it has so many issues now with the base setup I need to reinstall the OS again...). Stuff like that. While the Macs just run and run and run... Makes it fun going into a studio and do music rather than spending time reconfiguring the system.
As for underpowered, I think the G4 solutions were indeed underpowered, while G5 systems are the top of cream concerning audio work.
--Kent
As for underpowered, I think the G4 solutions were indeed underpowered, while G5 systems are the top of cream concerning audio work.
--Kent
wrt stability: I hate mac/pc threads as much as I hate liver, but I've heard sooo many bad studio stories, that I no longer believe the mac=stability myth. I've also heard enough stable pc-stories to no longer believe the pc=instability myth.
The computer, be it a mac OR pc, is an extension of the user/users. If the user fucks up, the computer fucks up. Simple.
The computer, be it a mac OR pc, is an extension of the user/users. If the user fucks up, the computer fucks up. Simple.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.
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::mic-minimal::
- Posts: 658
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:32 am
- Location: behind you
i love it when i hear 'macs just work out of the box' and pcs don't.
like you can t just by a pc and then use it out of the box
thats some funny shit, apples got you by the balls.
i gave up my very cool white icebook because i couldn't resist the fact that the sony picturebook i was looking at had better on board sound *by yamaha) that really kicked ass, the sound was better than anything i'd ever heard on a laptops onboard chip, now i've got a panasonic with an echo card, and i'll get a g5 laptop when they come out but trust me, it's just because i'm hoping they'll be cool, not because i can't use a pc out of the box....thats rediculous
like you can t just by a pc and then use it out of the box
thats some funny shit, apples got you by the balls.
i gave up my very cool white icebook because i couldn't resist the fact that the sony picturebook i was looking at had better on board sound *by yamaha) that really kicked ass, the sound was better than anything i'd ever heard on a laptops onboard chip, now i've got a panasonic with an echo card, and i'll get a g5 laptop when they come out but trust me, it's just because i'm hoping they'll be cool, not because i can't use a pc out of the box....thats rediculous
for the love of Live
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noisetonepause
- Posts: 4938
- Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
- Location: Sticks and stones
Easily done, mate. Do you know who owns Virtual PC. OK, question answered!
Despite this simple explanation there are working emulators for both - old Mac OS (Very reliable and stable OS - dream on!) and Mac OSX (BSD really was a good choice, but OSX is far from being more mature than *ices or WinXP) 'out there', maybe you just haven't been interested enough to find them.
The one thing is, that building a commercial emulator depends on how many copies you might be able to sell, when its done (which might be not too much for there's not such an variety and quantity of exclusive MacOS applications). The second is, that there are two different approaches on building emulators: One is buiding hardware emulation, which is not an attempt to consider as seriously valuable when it comes to performing. The other is to just emulate certain processor/platform specific tasks when needed and let all others be run natively by the processor which is at hand (There's one project going this direction, but as mentioned above it is not necessarily commercial, and so it might not be in your view).
To cut it short: For making conclusions about the quality of an OS you need to know it quite well. And I mean really quite well. But to draw these conclusions from the existence or nonexistence of emulators is strictly bull!
Anyway, I do what I want, and I use them all, if they do what I want.
Peace to you all
Despite this simple explanation there are working emulators for both - old Mac OS (Very reliable and stable OS - dream on!) and Mac OSX (BSD really was a good choice, but OSX is far from being more mature than *ices or WinXP) 'out there', maybe you just haven't been interested enough to find them.
The one thing is, that building a commercial emulator depends on how many copies you might be able to sell, when its done (which might be not too much for there's not such an variety and quantity of exclusive MacOS applications). The second is, that there are two different approaches on building emulators: One is buiding hardware emulation, which is not an attempt to consider as seriously valuable when it comes to performing. The other is to just emulate certain processor/platform specific tasks when needed and let all others be run natively by the processor which is at hand (There's one project going this direction, but as mentioned above it is not necessarily commercial, and so it might not be in your view).
To cut it short: For making conclusions about the quality of an OS you need to know it quite well. And I mean really quite well. But to draw these conclusions from the existence or nonexistence of emulators is strictly bull!
Anyway, I do what I want, and I use them all, if they do what I want.
Peace to you all
in response to the subject if macs are so "underpowered"
i assume your use of quotations refers to folks on this particular forum saying macs are underpowered. Well, don't forget they are talking about the specific lack of mac performance with ABLETON LIVE, not a general weakness.
If the code was written better for mac, the macs would perform better when executing the code.
Why does this thread even exist? It just breeds segregation and hatred between users as everything that has been said in this thread has been said and debated on countless other threads
i assume your use of quotations refers to folks on this particular forum saying macs are underpowered. Well, don't forget they are talking about the specific lack of mac performance with ABLETON LIVE, not a general weakness.
If the code was written better for mac, the macs would perform better when executing the code.
Why does this thread even exist? It just breeds segregation and hatred between users as everything that has been said in this thread has been said and debated on countless other threads
Well this thread doesn't exist out of itself. It's like any of those are: Don't start talking about dicks!AdamJay wrote:Why does this thread even exist? It just breeds segregation and hatred between users as everything that has been said in this thread has been said and debated on countless other threads
There's, apart from this simple rule, one thing in this forum, alike all the others where there's Mac OS confronted with the reality of not being the best performer, which is really annoying: The developers are blaimed for not supporting the Apple platforms enough.
Apart from economical ratio (which might be very well inadequate) ask yourself, how many of you complainers know, that the creators of this great program come from their very beloved platform themselves, and how many of them know how to seperate OS faults from application faults, or to take a more easy to follow example: If your VSTi doesn't work, how do you know who's fault it is?
It is always hard to find out for the developers themselves. But to the Mac OS user (who doesn't even know the standards specifications, before he judges) it is almost in any case clear their system is god, the application is a sinner. Mac OS is good, Audio Units are good, Altavec is good, the driver is bad, the application is bad. But you know nothing, and as a religious attitude this fits quite nice to Mr. Jobs publicity stage show.
Mac OS will grow in support with its own maturity growing. It is a great OS.
I like to respect other people's work I gladly may make use of. I don't respect people who don't.
Let me sum it up for you, Live is not written for Altivec. If it was, performance would be better. BTW, your post doesn't make sense.atom_b wrote: -how do you know who's fault it is?
-their system is god, the application is a sinner.
-Mac OS is good, Audio Units are good, Altavec is good, the driver is bad, the application is bad. But you know nothing.
Accidents are the portal to discovery!
according to ableton guy whatshisname, that's not necessarily true. altivec enhancement would have only a marginal effect on live/mac performance, according to his post @ the time of the 4.0 launch.MarkH wrote:Live is not written for Altivec. If it was, performance would be better.
now whether or not that is literally true, or why, even with the mac-friendly things they certainly did accomplish with v4, it's still measurably better on the pc.. only people really intimate with the code know.
of course i am totally aware that it runs more efficiently on a pc, but it's always sorta cracked me up that apparently it really doesn't run THAT bad on a mac seeing as at least one of the founders of the company is a dedicated mac user, someone who has quite a successful recording & performance career...
Yeah, I know all that, but even marginal performance would be a plus!drush wrote:MarkH wrote: according to ableton guy whatshisname, that's not necessarily true. altivec enhancement would have only a marginal effect on live/mac performance, according to his post @ the time of the 4.0 launch.
I don't think Live is any more optimized for PC than Mac, but I think the nature of commodity PCs being faster than G4 is what gives the illusion of optimization. The bottom line is that I can't understand why a company wouldn't write for Altivec? Just in case you add more features down the road that would benefit from Altivec at least it's already in the base code. One of the reasons Ableton said they didn't add altivec to G4 is it would require a re-write.
Personally, I am happy with the way Live runs on my Powerbook. I also own PCs so I know first hand the differences. But I still like my Powerbook most and I'm content with Live 4. I use a lot of the NI plugins and with the exception of Reaktor, the rest of them run around 8-10% per instance.
Accidents are the portal to discovery!
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noisetonepause
- Posts: 4938
- Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
- Location: Sticks and stones
The thing is, we're not really too upset with not being the best performers... we're upset with PC users who constantly say, 'mine is longer, you're a loser for not using a PC, you're an idiot for falling for Apple's marketing hoax, you're an idiot for not using a PC when they're cheaper and faster and longer than yours!'. THAT is annoying.atom_b wrote:There's, apart from this simple rule, one thing in this forum, alike all the others where there's Mac OS confronted with the reality of not being the best performer, which is really annoying
-Paws
Man,it is personal, cheap advice but just use a mental mirror "we`re not really upset ". Who is "we"? You do seem to be a victim of Apple marketing strategy to create sect like feeling of belonging. Maybe some overenthusiast of pc vent out his lives frustrations through "mine is bigger" so what? Everybody has a right to say something silly, maybe he had a bad day, maybe his girlfriend left him, maybe he has no girlfriend, maybe his pc crushed....and on top of it he has his supersonic speed pc but not a 1% of your artistic skill and ideas. But even then he says your tool is lesser performer, for heavens sake, the computer not you! So dont get upset because no.1 if the comment is silly, why should you bother idiots opinion, no.2 it is a statement about a machine not a being , not you.noisetonepause wrote:The thing is, we're not really too upset with not being the best performers... we're upset with PC users who constantly say, 'mine is longer, you're a loser for not using a PC, you're an idiot for falling for Apple's marketing hoax, you're an idiot for not using a PC when they're cheaper and faster and longer than yours!'. THAT is annoying.atom_b wrote:There's, apart from this simple rule, one thing in this forum, alike all the others where there's Mac OS confronted with the reality of not being the best performer, which is really annoying
-Paws
It is just my 2 eurocents suggestion- own the Apple but let not Apple ( or anyone else) own you.
why do apple dominate in theA/V and graphics industries?
firstly - stability.
Most studio clients through the 90's, and by that I mean the 'producer' who books all the gear and the engineers in, their only experience of win machines was '95 or '98 ... which redefined poor stability. That kind of set a precedent up at the time. NT was considered 'geeky'. Music biz honch no like geeky.
second - killer apps.
one word - pro-tools
damn, thats two words.
Mac had the apps that PCs of 1995 - 1998 couldnt run succesfully, so why the hell would studios use a PC. I edited an album on the cheap using a PC based DAW in 1996. LIVING HELL
third - style.
most clients I have ever dealt with (in my many biz incarnations), they love to see the tech guy has the coolest gear. "hey man - can you get ME one of those!". Film / TV and Music are heirachic buisnesses - these soho loft dwelling types want to see that even their flunkies are top of their respective tree in terms of cool gadgets.
beige boxes dont go with armani or bling
fourth.
if it aint broke - I cant afford to fix it. Once Macs replaced Ataris - they were simply what peopel were used to - tape op learns protools on mac. Tape op earns money for studio owner.
Similarly, NS-10s still haunt many studios despite sounding terrible. People either are just plain used to them ... or have been educated to 'hear them as the ultimate good' which is frightening.
but thats a whole 'nother story.
what do I know
One of my past jobs was fixing/reinstalling dead studio macintoshes, I did it a lot, I mean A LOT.
Yet the owners would get a client in the control room the moment after I had finished, client says "hey man, you got a new 8600/200 - they are so cool - so stable, not like .. etc"
and the studio owner says " you bet! they are The Business !!! "
... myth is perpetuated
wher OS9 was wobbly, OSX is a great OS ,
but still, 95 % of the mac users I know with have NO idea what the 'system preferences' page is for example, never mind what unix is, or the terminal. When they break - I fix still fix em. I just dont have to take the 'unused' extensions out of the bin anymore
firstly - stability.
Most studio clients through the 90's, and by that I mean the 'producer' who books all the gear and the engineers in, their only experience of win machines was '95 or '98 ... which redefined poor stability. That kind of set a precedent up at the time. NT was considered 'geeky'. Music biz honch no like geeky.
second - killer apps.
one word - pro-tools
damn, thats two words.
Mac had the apps that PCs of 1995 - 1998 couldnt run succesfully, so why the hell would studios use a PC. I edited an album on the cheap using a PC based DAW in 1996. LIVING HELL
third - style.
most clients I have ever dealt with (in my many biz incarnations), they love to see the tech guy has the coolest gear. "hey man - can you get ME one of those!". Film / TV and Music are heirachic buisnesses - these soho loft dwelling types want to see that even their flunkies are top of their respective tree in terms of cool gadgets.
beige boxes dont go with armani or bling
fourth.
if it aint broke - I cant afford to fix it. Once Macs replaced Ataris - they were simply what peopel were used to - tape op learns protools on mac. Tape op earns money for studio owner.
Similarly, NS-10s still haunt many studios despite sounding terrible. People either are just plain used to them ... or have been educated to 'hear them as the ultimate good' which is frightening.
but thats a whole 'nother story.
what do I know
One of my past jobs was fixing/reinstalling dead studio macintoshes, I did it a lot, I mean A LOT.
Yet the owners would get a client in the control room the moment after I had finished, client says "hey man, you got a new 8600/200 - they are so cool - so stable, not like .. etc"
and the studio owner says " you bet! they are The Business !!! "
... myth is perpetuated
wher OS9 was wobbly, OSX is a great OS ,
but still, 95 % of the mac users I know with have NO idea what the 'system preferences' page is for example, never mind what unix is, or the terminal. When they break - I fix still fix em. I just dont have to take the 'unused' extensions out of the bin anymore