Wyoming

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andydes
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Post by andydes » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:56 pm

For general homocides per 100000 see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Most recent stats:

USA: 5.7
England and wales: 1.62
Scotland: 2.56

Not trying to make a point, here.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:53 pm

Calling this guy a Redneck Vigilante pretty much says it all about how quick some people are willing to embrace stereotypes. As long as the subject in question is white, of course. If he's from the South, well by all means! (I'm a total hypocrite here because pretty much all people from the South should be killed at birth, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of my point.) By all accounts Horn was a fairly average middle class guy with no criminal record.

If anyone can point to an example of violence or racism in his past, I'm all ears and eyes.

If anyone can point to an example where he bragged that someday he's going to kill himself a couple of Blacks or Latinos, I'm all ears and eyes. He did so in his 911 call, but I want something that shows prior intent, thank you.

Labeling Joe Horn a murdering racist redneck is fine, as long as you're prepared to label Miguel Antonio DeJesus and Diego Ortiz as career criminals. Which so far none of you 'Seekers of Justice' have been willing to do.




My feelings in this case have almost nothing to do with Joe Horn. I barely care about him or what he did or whether he was an Englishman from Oxford or a Redneck from Texas. Makes little difference to me.

Actually, if I'm honest, I cannot believe this guy got off free and clear. I mean, they fucking killed an alligator down in Florida for eating a fleeing robber, but Horn gets off. Go figure.

http://www.local10.com/news/14580866/detail.html



In a way this was murder. This was a guy who clearly became unhinged and enraged that a crime that was taking place before his eyes. He wanted to do something, and that something turned into the most extreme solution possible. The fact that 1) it wasn't his property and 2) he shot them in the back as they were fleeing is unforgivable. But what's done is done.

That doesn't mean I'm going to shed tears and get all doe-eyed and emotional that two criminals were killed. Does that make me a Macho Redneck? Well, give me a cold Lone Star, some shit-kickin' cowboy boots, and a wife and kids to beat because I'm a' comin' out, Ya'll!



Nope, my focus remains on the two individuals who were killed while...wait for it...committing a crime.

For me, this case is about crime, pure & simple. We can sit around and debate all day long about whether or not these guys deserved to die. We can rationalize their crimes away to the point that it's their Grandmother's fault because she beat them every Friday after her siesta. We can make excuse after excuse after excuse after excuse until we're blue in the face, but it's never going to change the fact that they were shot whilst leaving their very own crime scene. Their Very Own Crime Scene. I love that.



We can make this about Redneck Texans or Gun Control or Vigilante Justice or Race or Illegal Immigration, but at the end of the day they were committing a crime. There's risk. Bad Shit is known to happen on both sides, and usually does. If you wanna dance, be prepared to get your toes stepped on. That's what my Grammy used to say, anyway.

Risk

What if there had been a couple of big nasty Pit Bulls that ripped these guys throats out? Risk.

What if the owner had been home and shot these two gents with a vintage harpoon gun - maybe as they fled the scene? Risk.

What if they had broke into the home of a crazed sexual predator and his Gag-Balled Gimp, were subdued, and then butt fucked all night long? Risk.

What if they were eaten by a giant 9' alligator when fleeing the scene? Risk. And awesome, BTW.

What if they were killed by an unhinged neighbor with a shotgun? Oops. That's what happend. Risk.


It would have been better if Horn and merely winged them, or just gotten them to lie down until the cops got there. He would have then been hailed as a hero on both sides of this issue, no questions asked. Instead he chose to kill. That sucks for them, but again we come back to that same word.

Risk.


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nate_D
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Post by nate_D » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:01 pm

landrvr1 wrote: blah blah blah (I'm a total hypocrite here because pretty much all people from the South should be killed at birth, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of my point.) blah blah blah tl:dr

:roll:

fuck you hitler. the south is awesome. get fucked.


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landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:12 pm

nate_D wrote:
landrvr1 wrote: blah blah blah (I'm a total hypocrite here because pretty much all people from the South should be killed at birth, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of my point.) blah blah blah tl:dr

:roll:

fuck you hitler. the south is awesome. get fucked.

LOL. Awesome Johnny Cash image.


I'm not sure who's going to hate me more: The Island Monkeys or The South. Maybe they can toss a coin.


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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:24 pm

first of all, i can't speak for anyone else you've been typing at in this thread, but i already said the dead robbers should be in jail.



but, talk about risk:


are you willing to accept the risk that this ruling creates? The risk that every yahoo with a gun in Texas will now feel they have the right to use deadly force in a similar situation?



career criminals? OK, if you say so. But guess what? I don't care if they raped babies every day of the week before this. Horn didn't know if they did or not, and i think that is incredibly dangerous to rule that he has the right to shoot them dead IN THIS SITUATION with the information he had at the time of the shooting. What that motherfucker needed to do was stay in his house like the cops asked him to. He witnessed a ROBBERY, not a murder, rape, beating, kidnapping, or any attempt of such an act.


I would have an entirely different opinion if these men were armed or appeared to intend to do severe physical harm to Horn or anyone else. Then i believe he has the right to kill these guys.




The issues of race here are SPECULATIVE, they are just a nice add-ons to the fuck pile of the main issue. He should not be allowed to shoot those people dead regardless of his race or theirs. But, it is fair for me to SPECULATE that if the situation was the same, and the races reversed, the law would be interperated differently. just remember that these are two seperate parts of my argument if you're going to argue back...




.lm.
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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:29 pm

PS: I don't plan on ever commiting a robbery, so i don't have to worry about that kind of risk.

I have, however, come home extremely drunk, found myself locked out, and had such poor judgement at the time that i've busted a fucking window to get in. Should I have to endure the greater risk of being shot to death that this kind of court ruling engenders???



.lm.
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john gordon
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Post by john gordon » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:26 pm

nevermind....
Last edited by john gordon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:33 pm

tell that to the guy who works in the mail room at my office. when he was 18, he made some very poor choices and got busted for a robbery of a local store. he did 5 years in jail and is still on probation. but he's got a second chance now and is one of the nicest guys i know. he was fucked up at the time, he knows how stupid and wrong he was and he's a productive member of society now. he served a sentence appropriate for the crime he committed...




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landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:47 pm

...


Muffin, I'm agreeing with almost everything you are saying. *gasp!*

leisuremuffin wrote:first of all, i can't speak for anyone else you've been typing at in this thread, but i already said the dead robbers should be in jail.
Agreed.

are you willing to accept the risk that this ruling creates? The risk that every yahoo with a gun in Texas will now feel they have the right to use deadly force in a similar situation?
Everyone in Texas has pretty much always felt that way! Hell, some ride around with gun racks in their trucks! This ruling really does nothing to alter the existing attitudes. Something worth mentioning is the fact that, though Texans may love their guns, they actually don't use them to kill people all that much. At least not compared to the 25 other States that preceed them on this list:

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mu ... er-100-000

Texas = #26. Not even in the top 10. (Worth noting that Wyoming, the original topic of this thread, comes in at a very hefty #4!)

California; which arguably has the toughest gun control laws in the country, coming in at a (un)respectable #30. Ouch!

I seriously doubt that neighbors all across Texas are suddenly going to go all Rambo on people just because of this ruling. Incidently, Texas isn't even in the top 20 of total gun ownership by State in this country. Another myth blown away.

career criminals? OK, if you say so.
I don't say so, their mile long records say so.
I don't care if they raped babies every day of the week before this. Horn didn't know if they did or not, and i think that is incredibly dangerous to rule that he has the right to shoot them dead IN THIS SITUATION with the information he had at the time of the shooting.
Agreed. I'm focusing on the two criminals. My beef comes with the almost unprecedented outpouring of grief, sorrow, and outrage that we've seen because two thieves got blown away. There seems to be genuine shock and anger. If one of these guys was my brother or father, I'd be mighty upset and devastated. I'd be pissed at Horn. I'd want him to do some jail time. I can honestly say, no bullshit, that I would ultimately blame my relative for making a seriously bad career choice.

What that motherfucker needed to do was stay in his house like the cops asked him to. He witnessed a ROBBERY, not a murder, rape, beating, kidnapping, or any attempt of such an act.
Don't agree. I for one feel some responsibility to be a good neighbor and citizen. I saw someone get out of my neighbors car at 1am last year. I could've stayed inside, but I ran out like a dumb fuck and yelled "Hey fucker!" He ran. No shots fired.

It would have been pretty cool if he had subdued these guys without firing a shot. As I've said, he would have been a hero all around (and seriously pissed off the Gun Control lobby).


I would have an entirely different opinion if these men were armed or appeared to intend to do severe physical harm to Horn or anyone else. Then i believe he has the right to kill these guys.
Agreed.



The issues of race here are SPECULATIVE, they are just a nice add-ons to the fuck pile of the main issue. He should not be allowed to shoot those people dead regardless of his race or theirs. But, it is fair for me to SPECULATE that if the situation was the same, and the races reversed, the law would be interperated differently. just remember that these are two seperate parts of my argument if you're going to argue back...
Agreed, and it's totally fair for you to speculate on the race issue. I would also say that if all parties in this matter were white, we would not be having this discussion because it would have barely made the local news - let alone national. Who cares about 3 Texan crackers, anyway? I believe that with all my heart, as well as I believe in your premise that the ruling would have gone down differently if the shooter was latino or black.

That's another part of my anger over this issue. What should be a dialogue about crime in this country becomes instead a Giant Clusterfuck over Redneck White People, Latinos, Gun Control Laws, and Illegal Immigrants. God forbid we should ever stay focused on one issue for fucks sake. Nope, every fucking activist group has to come out of the woodwork to stake their claims in this Bullshit Fest.

Another thing that's not being reported widely is the dismay felt in the Illegal Immigrant Rights community over this shooting. They fucking HATE stories like this because they know it only fuels the fire of prejudice that they are fighting to overcome. There is a very good reason that Illegal Immigrant Rights groups haven't spoken out about this much.

In fact, as long as we are speculating here: If a group of hard working illegals were inside partying with Joe Horn (hey, it's a stretch, but you never know!), and knew these criminals were fellow illegals, THEY probably would have gone out and beat these guys to a pulp for fucking things up and not making an honest living. :P


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ThrowAway
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Post by ThrowAway » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:05 am

I wonder what data the U.N. used to deem scotland the most violent place on earth. Or am I wrong about that?

I guess certain stats make things look different because I know tampa is in the top five murder cities in the us and top three in rape cases but at 25 in gun related murders. that was off americas most wanted a couple of years ago.

ThrowAway
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Post by ThrowAway » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:21 am

Heres total crime victims

DEFINITION: People victimized by crime (as a % of the total population). Data refer to people victimized by one or more of 11 crimes recorded in the survey: robbery, burglary, attempted burglary, car theft, car vandalism, bicycle theft, sexual assault, theft from car, theft of personal property, assault and threats. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

SOURCE: UNICRI (United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute). 2002. Correspondence on data on crime victims. March. Turin


#1 Australia: 30.1%
#2 New Zealand: 29.4%
#3 United Kingdom: 26.4%
#4 Netherlands: 25.2%
#5 Sweden: 24.7%
#6 Italy: 24.6%
#7 Canada: 23.8% <--how does canada have more vics than US??
#8 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 23.2%
#9 Malta: 23.1%
#10 Denmark: 23% <---doesnt look so happy now does it?
#11 Poland: 22.7%
#12 Belgium: 21.4%
#13 France: 21.4%
#14 Slovenia: 21.2%
#15 United States: 21.1%
#16 Finland: 19.1%
#17 Austria: 18.8%
#18 Switzerland: 18.2%
#19 Portugal: 15.5%
#20 Japan: 15.2%

DEFINITION: People victimized by sexual assault (as a % of the total population). Data refer to female population only. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

SOURCE: UNICRI (United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute). 2002. Correspondence on data on crime victims. March. Turin


#1 South Africa: 125.965
#2 Colombia: 114.5083
#3 Guatemala: 43.9737
#4 Thailand: 41.4695
#5 Paraguay: 19.3959
#6 Mexico: 17.7735
#7 Belarus: 13.44
#8 Lithuania: 12.2598
#9 Zimbabwe: 11.9841
#10 Estonia: 11.9795
#11 Latvia: 11.2985
#12 Barbados: 10.4869
#13 Ukraine: 9.2747
#14 United States: 9.1
#15 Moldova: 8.5941
#16 Uruguay: 7.1321
#17 Côte d'Ivoire: 6.1367
#18 Poland: 6.0362
#19 Bulgaria: 4.8366
#20 Slovakia: 4.8132
#21 Macedonia, Republic of: 3.5943
#22 Portugal: 3.31
#23 Azerbaijan: 3.0314
#24 Hungary: 2.49
#25 Slovenia: 2.4145
#26 Czech Republic: 1.9517
#27 Australia: 1.8802
#28 Chile: 1.7237
#29 Germany: 1.635
#30 Spain: 1.4962
#31 New Zealand: 1.3574
#32 Singapore: 0.9457



gun-violence: source gun-violence wiki
#1 New Zealand: 1.3%
#2 Austria: 1.2%
#3 Sweden: 1.1%
#4 Finland: 1.1%
#5 Australia: 1%
#6 United Kingdom: 0.9%
#7 Canada: 0.8%
#8 Slovenia: 0.8%
#9 Netherlands: 0.8%
#10 France: 0.7%
#11 Switzerland: 0.6%
#12 Italy: 0.6%
#13 Denmark: 0.4%
#14 United States: 0.4%
#15 Belgium: 0.3%
#16 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 0.3%
#17 Portugal: 0.2%
#18 Poland: 0.2%
#19 Malta: 0.1%
#20 Japan: 0.1%



DEFINITION: People victimized by assault (as a % of the total population). Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevelence.

SOURCE: UNICRI (United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute). 2002. Correspondence on data on crime victims. March. Turin

#1 Saint Kitts and Nevis: 3%
#2 United Kingdom: 2.8%
#3 Australia: 2.4%
#4 New Zealand: 2.4%
#5 Canada: 2.3%
#6 Finland: 2.1%
#7 Denmark: 1.4%
#8 France: 1.4%
#9 Sweden: 1.2%
#10 Belgium: 1.2%
#11 United States: 1.2%
#12 Poland: 1.1%
#13 Malta: 1.1%
#14 Slovenia: 1.1%
#15 Switzerland: 1%
#16 Netherlands: 1%
#17 Austria: 0.8%
#18 Portugal: 0.4%
#19 Italy: 0.2%
#20 Japan: 0.1%

DEFINITION: Total recorded intentional homicides, completed. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

SOURCE: The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2002) (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

#1 India: 37,170
#2 Russia: 28,904
#3 Colombia: 26,539
#4 South Africa: 21,553
#5 United States: 16,204
#6 Mexico: 13,144
#7 Venezuela: 8,022
#8 Philippines: 6,553
#9 Thailand: 5,140
#10 Ukraine: 4,418
#11 Argentina: 3,453
#12 Indonesia: 2,204
#13 El Salvador: 2,024
#14 United Kingdom: 1,201
#15 Peru: 1,136
#16 France: 1,051
#17 Belarus: 989
#18 Korea, South: 955
#19 Germany: 914
#20 Zimbabwe: 912
#21 Jamaica: 887
#22 Nepal: 826
#23 Zambia: 797
#24 Poland: 716
#25 Yemen: 697
#26 Italy: 644
#27 Japan: 637
#28 Romania: 563
#29 Malaysia: 551
#30 Canada: 523
#31 Spain: 494
#32 Papua New Guinea: 465
#33 Kyrgyzstan: 413
#34 Moldova: 340
#35 Bulgaria: 332
#36 Australia: 302
#37 Lithuania: 293
#38 Panama: 281
#39 Costa Rica: 254
#40 Bolivia: 248
#41 Portugal: 247
#42 Georgia: 239
#43 Chile: 235
#44 Czech Republic: 234
#45 Sweden: 219
#46 Uruguay: 217
#47 Latvia: 214
#48 Switzerland: 213
#49 Azerbaijan: 212
#50 Hungary: 203


DEFINITION: The piracy rate is the total number of units of pirated software deployed in 2007 divided by the total units of software installed.

SOURCE: Fifth Annual BSA and IDC Global Software Piracy Study

#1 Armenia: 93%
#2 Moldova: 92%
#3 Bangladesh: 92%
#4 Azerbaijan: 92%
#5 Zimbabwe: 91%
#6 Sri Lanka: 90%
#7 Yemen: 89%
#8 Libya: 88%
#9 Venezuela: 87%
#10 Vietnam: 85%
#11 Iraq: 85%
#12 Indonesia: 84%
#13 Pakistan: 84%
#14 Algeria: 84%
#15 Cameroon: 84%
#16 Ukraine: 83%
#17 China: 82%
#18 Botswana: 82%
#19 Bolivia: 82%
#20 Zambia: 82%
#21 Nigeria: 82%
#22 Paraguay: 82%
#23 Côte d'Ivoire: 81%
#24 El Salvador: 81%
#25 Kenya: 81%
#26 Nicaragua: 80%
#27 Guatemala: 80%
#28 Senegal: 80%
#29 Kazakhstan: 79%
#30 Dominican Republic: 79%
#31 Thailand: 78%
#32 Albania: 78%
#33 Tunisia: 76%
#34 Serbia and Montenegro: 76%
#35 Argentina: 74%
#36 Honduras: 74%
#37 Panama: 74%
#38 Russia: 73%
#39 Lebanon: 73%
#40 Peru: 71%
#41 Uruguay: 69%
#42 Philippines: 69%
#43 India: 69%
#44 Macedonia, Republic of: 68%
#45 Romania: 68%
#46 Bulgaria: 68%
#47 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 68%
#48 Morocco: 67%
#49 Ecuador: 66%
#50 Chile: 66%
#51 Turkey: 65%
#52 Kuwait: 62%
#53 Oman: 61%
#54 Costa Rica: 61%
#55 Mexico: 61%
#56 Jordan: 60%
#57 Egypt: 60%
#58 Malaysia: 59%
#59 Brazil: 59%
#60 Greece: 58%
#61 Colombia: 58%
#62 Bahrain: 57%
#63 Mauritius: 57%
#64 Poland: 57%
#65 Latvia: 56%
#66 Lithuania: 56%
#67 Croatia: 54%
#68 Qatar: 54%
#69 Saudi Arabia: 51%
#70 Estonia: 51%
#71 Hong Kong: 51%
#72 Cyprus: 50%
#73 Italy: 49%
#74 Slovenia: 48%
#75 Iceland: 48%
#76 Malta: 46%
#77 Slovakia: 45%
#78 Puerto Rico: 44%
#79 Portugal: 43%
#80 Spain: 43%
#81 Korea, South: 43%
#82 Hungary: 42%
#83 France: 42%
#84 Taiwan: 40%
#85 Réunion: 40%
#86 Czech Republic: 39%
#87 Singapore: 37%
#88 United Arab Emirates: 35%
#89 South Africa: 34%
#90 Ireland: 34%
#91 Canada: 33%
#92 Israel: 32%
#93 Norway: 29%
#94 Australia: 28%
#95 Netherlands: 28%
#96 Germany: 27%
#97 United Kingdom: 26%
#98 Switzerland: 25%
#99 Finland: 25%
#100 Denmark: 25%
#101 Belgium: 25%
#102 Sweden: 25%
#103 Austria: 25%
#104 Japan: 23%
#105 New Zealand: 22%
#106 Luxembourg: 21%
#107 United States: 20%

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:35 am

Oh man. We didn't make number 1 in ANY of the catagories... :evil:


Unless you want to start counting innocents killed in Iraq, of course.


:P


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