the biggest frustration using Live live....

RawTheory · Post by **RawTheory** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:06 pm

Not having proper program change functions in a "live" app. is retarded...

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:19 pm

midi clock must be rock solid. no more second place to hardware!

if live is truly to be the nerve center of a live setup, it's critical that live is like an atomic clock when it comes to midi clock!

ze2be · Post by **ze2be** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:58 pm

tempus3r wrote:http://www.ableton.com/user-survey

Fill out the survey. They ask for your top 3 feature requests.

Great, how would you write it, like this:

1.Custom MIDI mapping of Live (bomes and midi ox type function)
2.Custom Hotkeys
3.Overall more live focus!

edit: ok to late, ive sent it!

kenporter · Post by **kenporter** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:01 pm

I think both adding more live features as well as DAW features go hand in hand. I love Live because of its workflow and I think partially that is because it feels more like an instrument than it does like a conventional DAW. I use Live mainly in the studio and I for one want more DAW features (proper MIDI editing tools, folder tracks, etc.), but I could also appreciate more live features.

I actually know quite a few people who choose Live as a main DAW in their studio, so I wouldn't say that the DAW features Ableton has been adding were/are unnecessary.

+1 for more live features
+1 for more DAW features

Ken

attackmode · Post by **attackmode** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:51 pm

tempus3r wrote:
attackmode wrote:
However for live use i found that a rack with a midi mapped chain selector gives a solid way to selected devices and make good use of the macros.

Chain selector is a great help, but this doesn't address the problem of having to manually click on the device if you want your controller knobs to "auto map" to the macro knobs. That's the problem. Chain selector will let you switch between them easily to play those synths, but you'd have to manually and statically map controller knobs to macro knobs; requiring tons more knobs. Using Lives unsupported mapping script you can auto map your controller knobs to the macro knobs of the selected device but we still have the problem of how to select that device without dicking with the mouse or keyboard shortcuts with 3rd party hacks.

You are right, this doesn't work with auto map.

I prefer to assign my hardware controllers to fixed macro knobs, that way I can always be sure which knob controls which rack.

For instance I have 3 knobs assigned to a delay rack. This delay rack has some child racks with various delay effects and I map the macro controls of the child racks to the macro controls of the master.
That way the knobs of the master rack always control the knobs of the rack that is currently selected with the chain selector.

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:55 pm

i have no fucking clue. i don't use it on stage in front of people.

thefool · Post by **thefool** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:56 pm

the most annoying thing in live: the hidden built in limiter.

forge · Post by **forge** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:51 pm

Grappadura wrote:But don´t we all love live? Maybe its a mans nature to critique most what you love most... (throwing in some philosophical thoughts)

he he..of course! but I think ABleton has to hear these opinions - I get the feeling they were of the impression that a lot of people use Live in the studio and that meant they needed to focus more on making it a Studio tool

but I think if they put all that energy into making it the absoulte best possible Live tool they could then it would have helped in the studio

Almost everyone I speak to either online or in the real world always says "Live is my Live app, I use Pro-tools/Logic/Cubase/Nuendo/etc in the studio" - of course more and more people are using Live inthe studio as well, but woudnt it be better to have Live in the studio more Like you might have a Synth or Guitar - the Sequencer instrument you play your instrument on, then let the DAWs that have spent years focusing on studio work handle the rest?

I am not actually saying they shouldnt add any of these features, just add the Live features first

to put it another way it would be MUCH, MUCH easier to work around missing DAW features than it is currently to work around missing Live features, and most of the time the workarounds involve loading up maybe several 3rd party applications which is only ever going to be a risk on stage

The suite is nice, but I already had NI Komplete, Waves Gold, some Antares and about a million freeware VSTs/VSTIs - and I dont think I'm alone there

kabuki · Post by **kabuki** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:18 am

forge wrote:I almost feel Ableton needs to conduct some usability surveys - not that online survey I just did that Kabuki linked that asked loaded questions that suggested a particular response, but instead some real life usability studies into what people actually need live

tempus3r linked the survey, not me. I thought it was kind of funny, the survey. They ask what are the most important features missing from Live in a survey but we have a forum FULL of requests. I figure they are looking for some very specific ideas to focus on because the wishlist forum has gotten cluttered. Saying something like "Make Live more performance oriented would be too broad. It needs to be spelled out as specifically as possible, I would guess.

I like Live as a DAW, but it's true beauty was lost since V5

nowtime · Post by **nowtime** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:22 am

Very frustrated with Live myself today, trying to do live dub-type variations on some sliced drum-loops. Pinpointing the precise problem is difficult. With Live 7 I have so many juicy and powerful tools under my fingers - Drumracks with effects racks on each drum pad. Session won't record my doodlings, so I go to the Arrange. I record automation and just get lost in a web of racks within racks, parameters un-adjustable because of macro mapping, and confusing behaviour with recorded automation vs. back-to-arrange function.

I really don't know what it is. If I just resampled it would be doable. But trying to record everything for finetuning automation is just not fun. And yet that is what I need to do.

forge · Post by **forge** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:36 am

nowtime wrote:Very frustrated with Live myself today, trying to do live dub-type variations on some sliced drum-loops. Pinpointing the precise problem is difficult. With Live 7 I have so many juicy and powerful tools under my fingers - Drumracks with effects racks on each drum pad. Session won't record my doodlings, so I go to the Arrange. I record automation and just get lost in a web of racks within racks, parameters un-adjustable because of macro mapping, and confusing behaviour with recorded automation vs. back-to-arrange function.

I really don't know what it is. If I just resampled it would be doable. But trying to record everything for finetuning automation is just not fun. And yet that is what I need to do.

yeah exactly

so to maybe summarise in a way that I guess has a chance of influencing a solution

exactly what you described here is the biggest source of my problems

the first problem is the session automation, but we've all been over that ... all we can do there is hope

the second part of the problem is recording every thing at once so you have no control when you are trying to record those bits of automation that you cant record in session - and Ableton have said that is high on their radar

the third part of the problem is finding what you are looking for in a maze of racks and tracks and inline mixers and automation lanes......which is essentially the main point behind this thread

if there was a way to map the devices so that you could just press a key on the keyboard and jump straight to the device you want then navigating through all the racks wouldn't be so much of a problem because you could go straight to where you want to be

I have no problem building racks, but trying to use them Live is really asking for trouble, and even when building them it would be helpful to be able to jump straight to them

jlgrimes · Post by **jlgrimes** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:29 am

forge wrote:If I can also just add - part of what I am talking about is this apparent need to 'provide everything in one program' rather than understanding their place in the already grand scheme of things in the music technology world

for example, the whole reason I posted this thread is because I am experimenting with different hardware controllers using GlovePIE as mentioned here: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88813

this lack of an ability to select a device via MIDI or KEY is not exclusively within Live, if you then try and work around Live's shortcomings using a 3rd party App then it is not even set up to allow you to easily do that

now I will have to not only find a way of routing MIDI within Live (MIDI yoke) and then find a way of configuring my controllers, but I also have to create some kind of long winded script to emulate ALT+(down*3) in key commands - just to select the device to use with Live's instant mapping

it just seems like every conversation they should be having in Ableton HQ should have the words in it somewhere "how will this help in Live performance?"

Michael Hatsis · Post by **Michael Hatsis** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:31 am

forge wrote:
nowtime wrote:Very frustrated with Live myself today, trying to do live dub-type variations on some sliced drum-loops. Pinpointing the precise problem is difficult. With Live 7 I have so many juicy and powerful tools under my fingers - Drumracks with effects racks on each drum pad. Session won't record my doodlings, so I go to the Arrange. I record automation and just get lost in a web of racks within racks, parameters un-adjustable because of macro mapping, and confusing behaviour with recorded automation vs. back-to-arrange function.

I really don't know what it is. If I just resampled it would be doable. But trying to record everything for finetuning automation is just not fun. And yet that is what I need to do.
yeah exactly

so to maybe summarise in a way that I guess has a chance of influencing a solution

exactly what you described here is the biggest source of my problems

the first problem is the session automation, but we've all been over that ... all we can do there is hope

the second part of the problem is recording every thing at once so you have no control when you are trying to record those bits of automation that you cant record in session - and Ableton have said that is high on their radar

the third part of the problem is finding what you are looking for in a maze of racks and tracks and inline mixers and automation lanes......which is essentially the main point behind this thread

if there was a way to map the devices so that you could just press a key on the keyboard and jump straight to the device you want then navigating through all the racks wouldn't be so much of a problem because you could go straight to where you want to be

I have no problem building racks, but trying to use them Live is really asking for trouble, and even when building them it would be helpful to be able to jump straight to them

Totally hear you guys on Live adding Live Features. Unfortunately right now 95%of the time you see someone performing some kind of Live set ( not DJ set ) they are using Live. The unfortunate part is that there is no competition in this area of the market

But for instantly jumping to any rack or device you want ( well as long as it you have enough knobs/faders for it ) tempus3r and attackmode came up with a really nice solution....

attackmode wrote:
tempus3r wrote:
attackmode wrote:
However for live use i found that a rack with a midi mapped chain selector gives a solid way to selected devices and make good use of the macros.

Chain selector is a great help, but this doesn't address the problem of having to manually click on the device if you want your controller knobs to "auto map" to the macro knobs. That's the problem. Chain selector will let you switch between them easily to play those synths, but you'd have to manually and statically map controller knobs to macro knobs; requiring tons more knobs. Using Lives unsupported mapping script you can auto map your controller knobs to the macro knobs of the selected device but we still have the problem of how to select that device without dicking with the mouse or keyboard shortcuts with 3rd party hacks.
You are right, this doesn't work with auto map.

I prefer to assign my hardware controllers to fixed macro knobs, that way I can always be sure which knob controls which rack.

For instance I have 3 knobs assigned to a delay rack. This delay rack has some child racks with various delay effects and I map the macro controls of the child racks to the macro controls of the master.
That way the knobs of the master rack always control the knobs of the rack that is currently selected with the chain selector.

To dive in a little deeper...
For each track set the Main Racks Chain Ruler to your MIDI keyboard say from C-2 to C2. Then create a chain in the main rack for each MIDI note. Here you would have 48 chains, C-2 to C2 has 48 notes. Map the macros or the main rack to the all macros of the children racks. So now when you turn macro 1 on the main rack macro 1 on all of the child racks will turn.

1. Map the Main/Parent racks macros to the 8 knobs on your controller. Now whenever you hit a note it will always bring up/select that Racks macros. All other chains macros will twist but since they are not selected via chain audio doesnt pass through them...

To use this on more tracks

1. Set up your MIDI controllers banks to output the same CCs and Notes but a different channel for all of them so:

bank/Preset 1 will send out on chan 1,
bank/Preset 2 will send out on chan 2,
bank/Preset 3 will send out on chan 3, ......

3. For each track set the parent/Main Racks chain selector and Main Macros to respond to a different channel. So, by switching banks on your MIDI controller you can now access any Macro you want

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:03 am

Best discussion I've read here in years I think.

kenporter · Post by **kenporter** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:14 am

forge wrote: he he..of course! but I think ABleton has to hear these opinions - I get the feeling they were of the impression that a lot of people use Live in the studio and that meant they needed to focus more on making it a Studio tool

but I think if they put all that energy into making it the absoulte best possible Live tool they could then it would have helped in the studio

Almost everyone I speak to either online or in the real world always says "Live is my Live app, I use Pro-tools/Logic/Cubase/Nuendo/etc in the studio" - of course more and more people are using Live inthe studio as well, but woudnt it be better to have Live in the studio more Like you might have a Synth or Guitar - the Sequencer instrument you play your instrument on, then let the DAWs that have spent years focusing on studio work handle the rest?

I actually have to disagree here. I work in the music industry with a lot of musicians and almost everyone that I talk to uses Live in the studio along with PT, Nuendo, Cubase, etc. because Live is still missing some of the DAW features that those programs offer. Most all of them, including myself, would be happy and ready to drop the others for Live if it had more DAW-like features.

I think the reason Ableton is growing as much as they have been is because they are focusing mainly on the DAW side of things too. Just because 40 people on this forum ask for more live features doesn't mean that the majority of users feels the same way. Of course the same could be true the other way around. My guess would be that the average user doesn't hang out on this forum and request features, therefore the survey.

Bottom line is that Ableton is a business and like many of you said they already own the live performance market, so why not concentrating on getting a piece of the DAW market too, especially since Ableton has a refreshing approach to creating music compared to PT, Cubase, Logic, DP, Sonar, etc.? I am sure they will improve on some live features, but personally I think what Ableton is doing by making it a DAW as well as a live tool is very smart. It makes me want to drop a program like PT and Cubase even though I have been a loyal customer since the early 90's. But just like many of my colleagues I don't want to do that yet because of the missing DAW-like features (crossfades, MIDI tools for example).

Thanks,
Ken