Q to experienced Users: Finding the proper DAW and effects?!

[Timur]

Hey everyone! As some of you might have noticed I have just popped up here in the forum and given that we're in the Ableton forum I am most likely somewhat bound to Live. I did not buy the full version of Live 6 yet and given the recent arrival of Logic 8 at a formidable price I am not sure if buying Live 6 is a wise thing to do at the moment. I am seeking advice on which DAW to buy and wether I will need a supplement of software effects (like Waves or anything). Thanks for any input!

Upto now I have mostly been doing music in a band context. Whenever there was need to record anything it was either a) for songwriting purposes and mostly done with room-mics or simple Boss digital 8 tracks or b) in a studio enviroment with kind of proper gear plus an engineer who was able to use the stuff. I have several years of live (not Live) experience, know about gear and despite a slight tinnitus (because of too much loud music in clubs and all too cramped rehearsal rooms) I can still hear lots of details.

After nearly 3 fruitless years of searching for people to build up a new band-project from scratch I decided to put some homerecording together and try composing all alone. If that leads to any good music I'll go on search for live musicians again who are interested in doing that stuff (for some reason it seems to be alot easier to find musicians who just want to play stuff you throw at them instead of finding those who want to create their own stuff with you). I am a Singer myself, can play guitar, synths (no Piano though), a bit of bass and have a knack for harmony as much as rythm and beats. I'll most likely be doing Electro/Rock/Pop music that wants to be performed live by the help of laptops, classic gear and people. I'm working losely together with an eletronic musician who is using Live 6 on a Mac himself with a MOTU UltraLite and only AU plugins and no hardware synths at all.

I have some experience with Live and Cubase, have seen Protools at work, but it's been several years that I have seen Logic in use. I do not own an Apple yet but a Macbook Pro will be one of the things I'm going to buy anytime soon (knowing that Intel based MB can also be used with Windows as well nowadays). I find Live's concepts for recording and live playback very intriguing. It seems to have a lighter impact on a system than Cubase SX, but I don't know how Logic compares to that. Since I plan on using a Notebook for lots of things like guitar and vocal effects (to stay on a digital effects path and get rid of most hardware-effects), drum-machine, sampler and stuff it's important to have a very stable system. Peter Gabriel is said to use Logic live and given the new possibilities of Logic 8 for live playing it seems to be quite a good choice.

Question is how Live 6 compares to that when you are NOT a DJ but a live musician in a band-context with lots of things to coordinate the computer with? How does it compare in a recording context when you're NOT only working on electronic loop-based music, but also in a more "classic" instrumented context? And last but not least: will Live 6 complement my other software/hardware enough or will I need to buy other effects (like Waves) for things like good delays, compression, stretching/conversion and general audio-editing? I need something intuitiv to work with that helps me express my ideas and patch them together into somewhat professional sounding arrangements, a software that works with me, not against me (like Cubase is awkward to use in times and even costs too much for being pure copy-protection code with audio-capabilities ).

This is my current gear that lusts for a proper DAW and effects:

Computer: X2 64 Dualcore at 2850 Mhz, 2GB Ram, WD150 (Raptor) for System plus program files (including sample libaries) and games , Hitachi 250gb for all general data storage and garbage, M-Audio Audiophile 24/96, Creative X-Fi (plus the Asio audio-interface of my Kore controller, but obviously I will need to fetch me a proper audio-interface as well).

Hardware: Novation Remote 37SL, Roland FC-300 (midi foot-controller that can be freely programmed for about anything), NI Kore1 controller with Asio 2xIn/4xOut, Korg 01/W, Alesis Micron, Casio CZ-101 (wont power up anymore, anyone know how to repair the power circuit?), H&K Attax 200 Combo-Guitaramp (tube pre-amp with solid state poweramp, stereo loop in/out after preamp, buildin Stereo Chorus and Plate-Reverb after loop, Midi module that allows switching about anything that doesn't need a potentiometer), some distortion pedals for heavy distortion stuff (russian Big-Muff, Pearl DS-06, H&K Warp), Behringer MX2004 analog mixer (20 inputs (8 with mic-preamp + inserts) + 2 x Aux and 2 x Tape inputs, 2 x 2 main outs, 2 x alt out, 2 x 2 aux outs, ctrl out, phones out, tape out), some Behringer rack effects I used for vocals (Virtualizer Pro multi-effect, MultiCom Pro for compression/limiting, Multigate Pro for noise-gate, Feedback Destroyer Pro for cursing about it's uselessness as a FB destroyer, but it's a 32 bands digital parametric equalizer with customizeable Q), Roland R8 drum-machine with 4 x 4 pads (cannot find the damn power plug though, will likely be replaced by a Korg PadKontrol or Alesis MPD24), several E-Guitars, one very cheapo E-Bass, 2 accustic guitars, 1 x Shure Beta 87a (condenser), 1 x Shure 545SD (old US build), 2 x Yamaha HS-80M active monitor-speakers. I do need to buy me some studio-grade large diaphragm microphone once, but I can borrow me one if I need it.

Software: NI Komplete 4 (5 is on it's way and I may get the Upgrade for FREE because of the Grace period), Kore 1 (2 is on it's way and I WILL get the Upgrade for FREE), Windows XP (Macbook will come and so will Leopard), Midi-OX (can convert about any Midi signal into something else (like note to cc or sysex or keyboard command)). No other software (yet), but I have been playing with Wavelab, Soundforge and the like. The main question remains, which DAW?!

[Pitch Black]

One super-duper-important thing that LIVE will do that Logic wont: On stage, tap tempo into it (ie hit a key or pedal or drum pad 4 times) and the WHOLE MULTITRACK PROJECT will now instantly play at that tempo.

I can't stress how important this is in a "live band" situation. How many "click track" acts have you seen that are severly hampered by being tied to the click - they sludge along, unable to soar, unable to cut loose.

The ability to run to the right tempo on the night is worth the price of admission to LIVE, IMHO. Live is also non-linear and spontaneous in a way that Logic does not even begin to approach.

[rikhyray]

Since it looks like you are real time music oriented, you may like Live better then any other DAW. Logic / Cubase are better for people working with lots of hardware synths, midi sequencing, Live is no match, the midi is its weakest point.
Live`s biggest advantage which makes a lot of real time musicians sticking to it, is the speed, work flow. No other DAW will let you put your ideas"on tape" that fast.

[Timur]

Thanks for the quick answers!

Here come two questions:

One super-duper-important thing that LIVE will do that Logic wont: On stage, tap tempo into it (ie hit a key or pedal or drum pad 4 times) and the WHOLE MULTITRACK PROJECT will now instantly play at that tempo.

You do have tap tempo with Logic, so what exactly is the difference? Does Live allow you to use Tap Tempo while playing and Logic only allows it when you stop playback?

Since it looks like you are real time music oriented, you may like Live better then any other DAW. Logic / Cubase are better for people working with lots of hardware synths, midi sequencing, Live is no match, the midi is its weakest point.

Before doing any real time music on stage I do have to do recordings for composition though and that will for sure include midi sequencing, not only of software synths but likely also of my three hardware pieces. For a beginning and quick gathering of idea I will likely just play the synths and record the audio, but in the long run Midi seems to be the better choice!? So what does Live lack that the others offer in that department?

[sqook]

Thanks for the quick answers!

Here come two questions:

One super-duper-important thing that LIVE will do that Logic wont: On stage, tap tempo into it (ie hit a key or pedal or drum pad 4 times) and the WHOLE MULTITRACK PROJECT will now instantly play at that tempo.

You do have tap tempo with Logic, so what exactly is the difference? Does Live allow you to use Tap Tempo while playing and Logic only allows it when you stop playback?

Not exactly. What he means is that live instantly can apply the global tempo to all warped tracks in your set, MIDI or audio. The entire project follows this tempo in realtime.

Logic could also do this, assuming you're only using MIDI tracks. Since it doesn't treat audio as elastically as Live, it won't also play back the audio content at the new BPM (to the best of my knowledge, anyways... i haven't used 8 yet, though).

[Tarekith]

I find Live's concepts for recording and live playback very intriguing. It seems to have a lighter impact on a system than Cubase SX, but I don't know how Logic compares to that.

>>> My experiece is the opposite, I was a Cubase user for years (sicne VST 2.x?) before C4 came out and I jumped ship to Logic and Live (same time I switched to a Mac as well). In my experience, SX has a slightly lower overall CPU hit than Live, even with all warping turned off in Live. Also, I've read recently on the Sound On Sound forums that in tests, SX is capable of streaming more tracks before audio breaks up than any other DAW, though I'm not sure how the new Logic is in this regard. In terms of the CPU hit, one thing t remember is that warping audio in Live to get it to match tempo has a large impact on how much power is required from the processor. If you're using Complex warp mode, this increases the farther from the original tempo you go. I personally have never had an issue running out of CPU power for pretty complex projects in Live 6 on my MBP though. <<<

Question is how Live 6 compares to that when you are NOT a DJ but a live musician in a band-context with lots of things to coordinate the computer with? How does it compare in a recording context when you're NOT only working on electronic loop-based music, but also in a more "classic" instrumented context?

>>>I record my guitar all the time with Live, and I'd say the vast majority of my music isn't based on loops, but real time performances of me playing. I don't even record soft synths as midi and then render, they get bussed directly to a new audio track and are recorded as I play. So it's certainly feasible to use Live as a traditional multi-track DAW. One KEY thing to remember if you work this way, is to make sure you turn off warping for any audio that is recorded at the correct tempo in your project. Since warping is nothing but timestretching, and since all time stretching degrades the audio slightly (some of Live's warp modes do this even at the original tempo), this is the number one way to achieve better overall sound quality. <<<

And last but not least: will Live 6 complement my other software/hardware enough or will I need to buy other effects (like Waves) for things like good delays, compression, stretching/conversion and general audio-editing?

>>> Well, I'd say probably, but that's a personal decision. The effects in Live are a mixed bag IMVHO. The fun and unique effects are really good, but things like compression and EQ I still use my 3rd party plug ins. EQ8 is ok, but I still don't care for Live's compressors. Delays, chorus, flange, etc all are useful and can go in many directions once you start automating the parameters via clip envelopes and the like.

Live is NOT an audio editor though, that's one huge con against it. There's plenty of workarounds, but it doesn't offer easy crossfades, fade in/out, DC removal, gain adjustment, normalizing (without rendering) or any of the things you might think of when using an audio editor. Like I said, there's wrokarounds though. To do a fade in for instance, you'd need to use a clip volume envelope, and then render the clip as a new file and reimport. However using clip envelopes means warping must be on, so it's sort of a catch 22 in terms of sound quality. Just an example. To put it simply, you can eventually get the results of an audio editor by using clip envelope functions and rendering the result, but it's nowhere near as fast or intuitive as a dedicated audio editor. <<<

I need something intuitiv to work with that helps me express my ideas and patch them together into somewhat professional sounding arrangements, a software that works with me, not against me (like Cubase is awkward to use in times and even costs too much for being pure copy-protection code with audio-capabilities ).

>>> It's a tough call in this case. If you can get over the lack of dedicated editing functions for everything you want to do, and instead think of alternate ways of working, it'll suit you fine. Coming from Cubase myself, it took me about 4-5 tunes in Live before I was even as close to as fast editing as I was in SX, and even then there's still times I need to reach for Wavelab. Logic is more or less like any other DAW, so if you've used Logic, DP, PT, Sonar or the like, switching to Logic will mainly be about learning the different names for the same functions. Switching to Live will mean rethinking how you approach making music, or at the very least how you edit it after the fact.

Midi in Live is pretty incompletely as well as mentioned above, though as I rarely use midi anyway, I'm maybe not the best person to ask about that anyway.

In Live's defense however, it's incredibly liberating having to only learn and work with one app for studio and live tasks. I also have a LOT of fun composing with Live, sometimes merely because it does force you to think differently about how you approach arranging and editing. Things like Clip envelopes and follow actions can be great sources of inspiration, as can abusing the warp modes and settings as effects in and of themselves.

Personally, I'm working on a CD now that's almost all being done in Live. Once that's complete however, I have a feeling that I'll be using Logic more for my everyday studio tasks, and using Live for those improvisational jams and exploration sessions. And of course for live and DJ use as well. I really only started using Live as a DAW because I wanted to try the Mac side of things, and C4 and Logic 7 were just too buggy (or had weird workflows) at for me compared to SX3 on XP. As I already knew Live from my live pa work, the transition there was pretty simple for me, and got me by with great results. I still miss a lot of dedicated DAW functions at times though, so likely Logic 8 will get my attention now that the stability and things have been ironed out. I'd never ule out going back to Live if it doesn't work out though, it's certainly served me more than well enough so far, even with it's limitations. <<<

[rikhyray]

what does Live lack that the others offer in that department?

Nearly everything what is standard in pro DAWs for past decade, but I feel Ableton is very much aware of it and I expect, hope in the next version it will get seriously better. Just that thier focus was somehow dispersed, or elsewhere, I don't think they can really afford not to get it right soon.
I adjusted my way of working because the speed, creative flow with Ableton works better for me. I do all midi/synth work in Reason, using sounds as close to real as it gets, then export to Live to use real synths.
BTW. The "real time" I meant also studio, any real playing as opposed to knob tweaking, "painting by numbers", ready made sample loops etc. Real music would me more precise description but I didn't want to offend anyone.

[pulsoc]

Don't fear the ...

[Timur]

Thank you for the detailed answer!

My experiece is the opposite, I was a Cubase user for years (sicne VST 2.x?) before C4 came out and I jumped ship to Logic and Live (same time I switched to a Mac as well). In my experience, SX has a slightly lower overall CPU hit than Live, even with all warping turned off in Live. Also, I've read recently on the Sound On Sound forums that in tests, SX is capable of streaming more tracks before audio breaks up than any other DAW, though I'm not sure how the new Logic is in this regard.

My experience comes from SX1 and SX2 where I always felt that the GUI tends to draw quite heavy on CPU either or you have to set it's priority so low that it becomes unusuable once you put some audio stress on Cubase. Also the CPU meter never seemed to give relyable informations as it would show mediocre usage and still everything behaved sluggish in times. Also I had problems getting the same low latency settings with just a single audio track to work in Cubase without crackles that worked flawlessly in Live when tested against each other.

I do suspect though that Cubase has the best harddrive streaming management whereas Live seems to get into troubles whenever it has to load data from the harddrive. And since streaming multiple tracks of audio needs quite a bit of loading from the harddisk that might be the source for it's supremacy. Given your own findings (as mentioned in an old thread) that the output quality of all mayor DAWs is equal (hence the algorithms used are likely equal as well), there should be no difference in CPU load as far as calculation goes, but other things like controllers, GUI and general managment of all interfaces surely add to that.

In terms of the CPU hit, one thing t remember is that warping audio in Live to get it to match tempo has a large impact on how much power is required from the processor. If you're using Complex warp mode, this increases the farther from the original tempo you go. I personally have never had an issue running out of CPU power for pretty complex projects in Live 6 on my MBP though.

I've read through the old thread with your tests regarding the output quality of Live with different warp modes at original tempo. Actually I think that I will need warping only for recording ideas and trying different tempi, once I find my tempo I will most likely record the audio tracks again at a set speed (as much as my playing abilities allow me to at least). In an old thread you showed that some warp modes don't alter the output when used at the original tempo, I wonder if that's also true for their CPU impact?


And last but not least: will Live 6 complement my other software/hardware enough or will I need to buy other effects (like Waves) for things like good delays, compression, stretching/conversion and general audio-editing?

Well, I'd say probably, but that's a personal decision. The effects in Live are a mixed bag IMVHO. The fun and unique effects are really good, but things like compression and EQ I still use my 3rd party plug ins. EQ8 is ok, but I still don't care for Live's compressors. Delays, chorus, flange, etc all are useful and can go in many directions once you start automating the parameters via clip envelopes and the like.

Question is how inbuild effects of other DAWs compare to Live's. Logic DSPs are quite praised in some forums, Sonar tries hard in 64 bit now, does Cubase come with anything inbuild anyway?

Live is NOT an audio editor though, that's one huge con against it. There's plenty of workarounds, but it doesn't offer easy crossfades, fade in/out, DC removal, gain adjustment, normalizing (without rendering) or any of the things you might think of when using an audio editor. Like I said, there's wrokarounds though. To do a fade in for instance, you'd need to use a clip volume envelope, and then render the clip as a new file and reimport. However using clip envelopes means warping must be on, so it's sort of a catch 22 in terms of sound quality. Just an example. To put it simply, you can eventually get the results of an audio editor by using clip envelope functions and rendering the result, but it's nowhere near as fast or intuitive as a dedicated audio editor.

So I'd have to calculate at least Wavelab Studio or Sony Soundforge (both at around 299 Euro) into the equation if I want to do serious audio editing. Do external editors blend well into Live? (I know you can set an external editor via preferences.) Considering audio quality compromises when using warp mode for envelopes I am with you that one should strive to get away without warp. But given the fact that nowadays MP3 is more of an audio standard for the masses than CD audio quality becomes a bit hypothetical. You will want to have the best quality to start with, but in the end most recorded material will be listened to online (like via Myspace or radio) or on mobile players (like mobile phones, Ipods and the like). I doubt that many differences between a complex warped track at original speed and an unwarped track will remain at the end of the chain.

It's a tough call in this case. If you can get over the lack of dedicated editing functions for everything you want to do, and instead think of alternate ways of working, it'll suit you fine. Coming from Cubase myself, it took me about 4-5 tunes in Live before I was even as close to as fast editing as I was in SX, and even then there's still times I need to reach for Wavelab.

I'm not sure yet how much I'm gonna miss convinient arrangments once the bits are recorded. It's a BIG help to have a DAW that let's you record easily and patch things together for gathering ideas and trying things out. As long as you can't get your ideas down you don't have nothing to work on anyway. But when inspiration is over and the hard working part begins I expect my DAW to keep supporting me. Recorded tracks want to be arranged into a complete songs to put down on a CD sometimes. If Live fails this part you can always export the tracks and have another software handle it, but then you'd wonder if it wasn't better to do everything with the other software anyway (like Logic or Cubase). Why did you change from Cubase to Live as far as workflow and quality of outcome is concerned?

Midi in Live is pretty incompletely as well as mentioned above, though as I rarely use midi anyway, I'm maybe not the best person to ask about that anyway.

It's enough for my friend to have finished his second CD with, so it should be suffient for me. What I do not like is the lack of an easy to use step-sequencer for external plugins. It's easy to use the drawing mode of the Midi clip view with internal instruments like Impulse with all notes being named after their respective sample (like bass, snare, hihat). But once you start a midi clip for something external like Battery all it shows are notes from C0 to C7 with seemingly no way to at least rename them manually (not to mention automatically). I find things like this very tedious, but maybe I just missed a function when trying it out (my Live using friend doesn't know any).

One thing that's very important for me is Midi controlability. I want to do things without having to reach for the mouse and keyboard whenever possible. You can't expect me to have a guitar hanging around my neck on stage or in studio, doing tapdances on my foot controler, playing and singing PLUS reaching for a mouse just to change some parameter of Live. I can live with using Midi conversion tools like Midi-OX as long as Live allows me to control things. I already read in another thread that controls for Overdub and such are not Midi controllable but need some Midi to keypress conversion. I don't like that! I want to use my foot controller to control recording when I'm recording guitar or vocals, so that I can concentrate on the act and not on the tech. It's the main reason I put so much money into hardware controller. I love the possibilities and convinience of software, but I hate using the mouse and keyboard as sole input device forcing me to keep thinking about the tech and numbers instead of just turning some knob intuitively.

In Live's defense however, it's incredibly liberating having to only learn and work with one app for studio and live tasks. I also have a LOT of fun composing with Live, sometimes merely because it does force you to think differently about how you approach arranging and editing. Things like Clip envelopes and follow actions can be great sources of inspiration, as can abusing the warp modes and settings as effects in and of themselves.

This is the thing I have to try mostly. I know how linear recording in a traditional DAW/recording studio works and still wonder how exactly Live is changing that when it comes to recording (not live use where it is obvious).

Personally, I'm working on a CD now that's almost all being done in Live. Once that's complete however, I have a feeling that I'll be using Logic more for my everyday studio tasks, and using Live for those improvisational jams and exploration sessions.

Why is that? What do you expect Logic to deliver that Live (and Cubase) does not beside the more sophisticated audio editing functions?

Thanks again for helping me decide on what to waste my money on!

[Tarekith]

I've read through the old thread with your tests regarding the output quality of Live with different warp modes at original tempo.

>>> Cool, I was going to direct you there if needed. Hesitantly, as those threads often end up going nowhere fast thanks to ignorance <<<

Question is how inbuild effects of other DAWs compare to Live's. Logic DSPs are quite praised in some forums, Sonar tries hard in 64 bit now, does Cubase come with anything inbuild anyway?

>>> Cubase effects are pretty good, more so in C4 now, better than Live's if I had to choose. Live's really don't compare to Logic's IMO, as they were primarily designed to be light on CPU for live use is my guess. <<<

So I'd have to calculate at least Wavelab Studio or Sony Soundforge (both at around 299 Euro) into the equation if I want to do serious audio editing. Do external editors blend well into Live?

>>>Not since they removed the Edit button from the Clip pane, takes more mouse clicks to get a file there now Why why why??? <<<


(I know you can set an external editor via preferences.) Considering audio quality compromises when using warp mode for envelopes I am with you that one should strive to get away without warp. But given the fact that nowadays MP3 is more of an audio standard for the masses than CD audio quality becomes a bit hypothetical. You will want to have the best quality to start with, but in the end most recorded material will be listened to online (like via Myspace or radio) or on mobile players (like mobile phones, Ipods and the like). I doubt that many differences between a complex warped track at original speed and an unwarped track will remain at the end of the chain.

>>>Depends on what you consider the end of the chain then I guess. For me the stereo wavs are always what I consider my final 'product', the 320kbps MP3's on my site are just placeholders <<<

I'm not sure yet how much I'm gonna miss convinient arrangments once the bits are recorded. It's a BIG help to have a DAW that let's you record easily and patch things together for gathering ideas and trying things out. As long as you can't get your ideas down you don't have nothing to work on anyway. But when inspiration is over and the hard working part begins I expect my DAW to keep supporting me. Recorded tracks want to be arranged into a complete songs to put down on a CD sometimes. If Live fails this part you can always export the tracks and have another software handle it, but then you'd wonder if it wasn't better to do everything with the other software anyway (like Logic or Cubase). Why did you change from Cubase to Live as far as workflow and quality of outcome is concerned?

>>> Well, I think Live is fine for arranging, it's just editing that can get tedious. I switched from Cubase to Live as I was going from a desktop based XP setup to a MBP running OSX at the same time. Cubase 4 was just released, buggy as hell on OSX, and I really didn't want to deal with a dongle either. That and I got sick of Steinberg using Cubase as a way to beta test Nuendo functions, and they didn't listen to their customers concerning new features. Something the Ableton crew excels at BTW. The workflow in Live was different, but as I said I was aware of the limitations ahead of time as I'd used it for prepping my live pas and editing songs for my DJ sets. I don't think the quality of my releases suffered at all in the move, just the ease of use maybe. I'm used to the work arounds now, and I know where to watch things as far as audio in concerned (ie, where and what warping to use), so sound quality in Live has never been an issue for me.<<<

It's enough for my friend to have finished his second CD with, so it should be suffient for me. What I do not like is the lack of an easy to use step-sequencer for external plugins. It's easy to use the drawing mode of the Midi clip view with internal instruments like Impulse with all notes being named after their respective sample (like bass, snare, hihat). But once you start a midi clip for something external like Battery all it shows are notes from C0 to C7 with seemingly no way to at least rename them manually (not to mention automatically). I find things like this very tedious, but maybe I just missed a function when trying it out (my Live using friend doesn't know any).

>>>No, that's more or less how it is. Named parts would be nice, but it's only fairly recently we've seen this come about in software anyway, and I guess I'm just used to doing it the old fashioned way. Never really bothered me, I always stick to a set drum part assignment per note number as well whch helps. You could always run Numerology if you needed a step sequencer. <<<

One thing that's very important for me is Midi controlability. I want to do things without having to reach for the mouse and keyboard whenever possible. You can't expect me to have a guitar hanging around my neck on stage or in studio, doing tapdances on my foot controler, playing and singing PLUS reaching for a mouse just to change some parameter of Live. I can live with using Midi conversion tools like Midi-OX as long as Live allows me to control things. I already read in another thread that controls for Overdub and such are not Midi controllable but need some Midi to keypress conversion. I don't like that! I want to use my foot controller to control recording when I'm recording guitar or vocals, so that I can concentrate on the act and not on the tech. It's the main reason I put so much money into hardware controller. I love the possibilities and convinience of software, but I hate using the mouse and keyboard as sole input device forcing me to keep thinking about the tech and numbers instead of just turning some knob intuitively.

>>> I can't talk much on that, I think Live has some pretty good midi functionality in that regard for my uses. At least in terms of assigning controls and their ranges, or setting up custom Racks. I never had the need to control non-midi-able parameters. I tend to just look for alternative ways of working instead of using third party tools to translate. One more thing to go wrong for me. <<<

Why is that? What do you expect Logic to deliver that Live (and Cubase) does not beside the more sophisticated audio editing functions?

>>> Because the music I like to make relies heavily on editing and audio manipulation, stutter edits and all that jazz. I do a lot of weird drum fills by manipulating audio files directly on the arrange page, and in Live this is much more time consuming than I'm used to. Doable, just takes me a lot longer. Also the lack of key commands for certain functions is frustrating at times, things like clip reverse, Trim, Fade in and out, etc. Like I said, I mainly construct my songs via detailed audio editing, and it gets old after awhile having to resort to clip envelopes, bounce the file, then reimport, double check warping is off, etc. Lack of crossfades too, I comp my guitar parts, and having to use two tracks and manually drawing envelopes to remove clicks gets tiring some days.

I don't want to sound harsh on Live, I really, really like the program, and Ableton support is seriously the best in the business. Just that I think if you want to use it as a main DAW, you should really know what you're getting in for so you can decide if you like the pros enough that they outweight the cons. <<<

[Nogi]

Live is NOT an audio editor though, that's one huge con against it. There's plenty of workarounds, but it doesn't offer easy crossfades, fade in/out, DC removal, gain adjustment, normalizing (without rendering) or any of the things you might think of when using an audio editor.

That said, 'Utility' works pretty nice for DC removal and gain adjustment.

[Tarekith]

It's the only way to use mono in Live as well.

[Timur]

Well, the Multi-Loop/Comp recording functions plus the ability to set/use key-combinations (I am a Norton/Windows Commander user ) for about everything is a mayor advantage of Logic. Given my less than perfect playing abilities I would surely make lots of use for that while in Live I would probably not even try to do it but instead just record so many tries until I am happy enough with the outcome. While the latter might be more perfect if I manage to play as good as I need to the method offered by Logic sounds like the faster, easier and maybe more satisfying way to record ideas and make something useful out of it.

Frankly at the moment I would not pay full price for a Live given the competition and no announcements on Live 7, but rather buy it used on Ebay (where you can get it for something between 200 and 300 Euros). I saw Cubase 4 + Wavelab 6 (full versions) for 700 - 800 Euros there, but I hate the idea of a dongle that can get lost, break and keeps my USB busy while I have to transfer vital data over it. You can define lots of your own keyboard-combinations though. Are faders and knobs in Logic Midi controllable? I like the integration of Live with my Remote SL, racks seem to offer even more midi possibilities although some of those are already covered by Kore anyway.

[condra]

Im looking closely at peoples views of Logic 8 at the moment, so I wanted to subscribe to this thread.

Timur, just a quick point. I think one of the main reasons those who are using Live as their main DAW, who decide not to move over to Logic, would be because of Session View in Live.

It may be the deal breaker for me too. I dont know if I could live without Session View, and I reckon I'm not the only person thinking long and hard about this right now.
Since I began using Live, all of my tracks have started life in Session View, "performed" over to Arrangement view, and tweaked there.

I think Logic would be almost a no-brainer for someone who preferred the more traditional linear way of arranging, but I suspect there are many who feel they cant live without Session View as an inspirational arrangement tool.

[Khazul]

In my experience, SX has a slightly lower overall CPU hit than Live, even with all warping turned off in Live. Also, I've read recently on the Sound On Sound forums that in tests, SX is capable of streaming more tracks before audio breaks up than any other DAW, though I'm not sure how the new Logic is in this regard.

+1 - Thats my experience with Cubase SX3 and also C4 - much more CPU efficient in simple cases, per plugin CPU overheads seem to be way lower, and it doesnt slow to a crawl when your using lots of plugins that need latency compensation, causing compensation to have to be applied across many tracks.

Wiothout a doubt the core Cubase engine does seem to be written for good CPU use.

Of course it cant do loads of things that live can though.

I actually use both Cubase and Live - Lve for composition, and Cubase for mixing when I can be arsed to transfer a load of audio tracks between them.

OT - why the hell isnt there a simple linear real time or non real time multi-track export option in most DAWs?

Even better - a standard format for exchanging audio projects - thats actually supported by all the major DAWs - Grrrrrr Rant!!! Grrrrrrr!