OT:Hold all Muslims responsible; London, Bali, Madrid, 911?

[forge]

What facinates me is that humankind seeks community of worship.
"Put down your Gods and come and worship ours".

Its really weird. If "God" is above us, any spiritual person would agree that there are FAR MORE things that unite us as people than divide us.

We are ALL ONE under The-Supreme-Force-That-Created-Us-Whatever-You-Percieve-That-To-Be.

As an interesting sidenote, the word "religion" comes from the Latin re ligare . Ligare means "joining" or "connecting" as in ligaments, so re ligare is to re-join, to re-connect.

To re-connect. To re-join. Integration, call it what you like. It always astounds me, the human ability to miss the point.

We cannot as a species hope to "know the mind of God" until we know the sum total of HUMAN experience first. Until we work that out we can't hope to get to the next level.

I mean... Who do these upstart apes think they are?

Love,
P

as always paddy, your words make me smile!

[braj]

All you people badmouthing the Bible are commiting heresy and are going to burn in hell. I pity your poor souls.












Just kidding! God, doesn't that sound aweful? Who could really believe that?

[forge]

nothing to see here - keep moving, please...

Forge - you seem to have forgotten The Cathars - The Albigensian Crusade...and that Christianity was forced onto the peoples of many a nation...

???

I didnt realise my post was in any way biased towards any one religion.

Perhaps that's a case in point - the thoughts in your head when you read something sway your interpretation of it. You took the tone of my post and interpreted it as though I was agreeing with the original post, where as my point was completely abstract and, like paddy just said, seeing us as upstart apes, nothing more who create religions to try and ease the completely bewildering confusion of living in the universe.

[MrSleep]

If Islam is a war religion then so is Zen Buddhism.

Seeing this kinda stuff really lets me know just how easy it would have
been to feel great about being a member of the nazi party.

-Ben

I was hoping to completely avoid writing on this issue as enough is being said by many others but:
I am afraid Benshik is right. Islam is a "war religion". It is clearly said in the Quoran (you can research it yourself if you don't believe me) that it is the duty of muslims to kill the infidel if they don't convert to islam. It is also ok to lie and cheat to people who are non muslim, but not to a fellow muslim. Now I don't want to incite hatred on muslims, I know many who don't buy into that crap, but facts are facts. The poor uneducated, misinformed are taking that concept literally!!!

i have read the english translation of the koran more than once.

it sais to kill the infidel when he has endagered his life or family, and that there is no forcefull conversion in islam.

it also sais God has placed many different ethnic groups so you may better understand.

it also sais, the infidels will find passages from the koran that contradict one another and bring enmity to the hearts of man.

Astral Fridge Magnet! maybe you read it for some other reason.

if you want, try reading the Torah & Bible, you will find contradictions there too ""(you can research it yourself if you don't believe me)""

when the mesenger of the prophet Mohammed went to proclaim the (coming) good tidings to the christian priest.., the priest took out his sword,, and edged a line on the sand.

he said this is our difference!

[conny]

You are not a murderer because you are a muslim.
You are not a good guy because you are a christian.

Other powers are at stake:
* Economy
* Power and fear
* Opression and revange

Hitler came partly to power because of some feeling that Germany had been "stabbed in the back".
And because some powerful men thought they would benefit from supporting him and then get rid of him - but they got stuck with him.

And take a look at a map, look carefully on these straight lines in the Middle east, in Arabia, in Africa - who drew them, and for what reason?

I'm not saying we are to blame ourselves for all this.
But if we want to defend or protect us, we should really think about the historical, economical etc base for it all.

But still, in some sense "we" created a monster.
I would say the expansion of colonies in the 17'th hundred and the lack of taking care of that afterwards, is something to remember.

Which does not take away the responsability from any terrorist.
But an acceptance of these things may help getting things a bit better in the future.

// C

[conny]

BTW: The imam of Stockholm published a article yesterday, trying to reach the muslim community and addressing all imams and leaders to stop accepting terror actions.

// C

[conny]

And off course Bin Laden etc should be put in front of a judge.
Every harm to a any human should be regarded a crime unless proven otherwise.
And I take the threats seriously, and I will never give any person/organisation/government the carte blanc to murder other people, for whatever reason.

// C

[Hypomixolydian]

Astral Fridge Magnet! maybe you read it for some other reason.

So, what are you trying to imply?

it also sais, the infidels will find passages from the koran that contradict one another and bring enmity to the hearts of man.

That's a handy little passage to blindly follow everything that is said and subdue any questioning or debate. In other words blindly accept, don't argue, otherwise you ""bring enmity to the hearts of men"" Devotion is nice, but blind devotion is foolish!!!

let's let the Koran decide this "killing of infidels" issue for us. I will give you a few verses so you can understand the aggressiveness and ruthlessness of Islam. There are many more like these verses that are just as telling.

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

I think it is quite clear to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims. They are commanded to fight to kill all non-Muslims including atheists, secularists, humanists, evolutionists, and all other religions but you will find that the Koran places special emphasis on killing off Jews and Christians. This is probably because of the rejection the Jews and Christians gave Muhammad.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone here or to any muslims. I am just quoting what is stated. I know many muslims who don't buy into that shit, but it seems many fundamentalists do. Its the fundamentalists who are taking it literally and out of context and are responsible for the chaos and turmoil we are facing these days. Not peace loving muslims.


Anyway, perhaps it's best not to discuss these issues here. I guess there are many other more appropriate forums to discuss these ideas. I don't want to offend anyone or rub anyone here the wrong way.

Peace

[conny]

I think it is quite clear to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims.

And there we go again...
Ever read about the wars in The Old Testament?
Check out the history of the word "shibboleth" to start with.

Remeber Jesus and the whore that was about to be killed?
"Those that are without sin..."

And the crusaders?

IMHO

And peace, yes.

// C

[Hypomixolydian]

I think it is quite clear to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims.

And there we go again...
Ever read about the wars in The Old Testament?
Check out the history of the word "shibboleth" to start with.

Remeber Jesus and the whore that was about to be killed?
"Those that are without sin..."

And the crusaders?

IMHO

And peace, yes.

// C

Here we go again (again)

The old testament speaks of massacres and wars. The new testament doesn't. Christ clearly states that the law of the new testament supercedes that of the old one, and that "an eye for an eye" is not valid anymore, but "Love each other as I have loved you" is.
In fact, most religions who have matured through the ages do preach peace, and never war. Islam preaches sometimes peace, and sometimes war. But if Islam preaches both, which interpretation is the right one? Is it right to be at peace? Or is it right to be at war?

In fact, if both interpretations are true, an interesting paradox arises. While christianity states that non-christians cannot reach salvation (although modern Catholic teachings have denied this too), christianism doesn't state that you should kill non-christians.

Hebraism, which is surely theoretically less peaceful than christianism, has nonetheless a history of patience towards oppression, instead of a history of violence. Just think of the Holocaust.

In fact, one of the interesting aspects of Islam, is that it conquered aggressively most of the then known world, while Christianism spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades (and the crusades were a reaction to Islamic invasion), and Hebraism through migration. The crusades killed far more christians than muslims anyway. But the crusaders themselves were terribly misguided as are the fundamentalists are today.

Again let me say that I am no expert on the matter ( though I know a little) and my position is one of agnosticism. All I am stating are facts and I have no intention to incite hatred or whatever. That is clearly said in my previous posts. I should also make clear that I am not trying to reduce Islam to those quotes I mentioned. Islam is a legitimate religion and I am not in a position to judge it and I am in no way attacking it.
The point I was making in previous posts is that fundamentalists are using those quotes to legitimise their murders, while most muslims don't buy into that shit. Also to contradict the statement that islam is a religion of peace, when there are quotes like that written in the koran.
As I have also said, I wish this issue will stop here, but if I am being challenged then I will respond to it.

Again, let me reiterate that I mean no disrespect to anyone!!!

Peace again!!!

[conny]

Again, let me reiterate that I mean no disrespect to anyone!!!

Peace again!!!

That goes for me too.
My point, maybe obscured, it that this is not based primary on religious belief. It's a question of power/depression/revange/ecomomy/powerty etc.

// C

[claudek]

The US Government is the main cause.

[Machinesworking]

The old testament speaks of massacres and wars. The new testament doesn't.

Just eventual Armageddon......

In fact, most religions who have matured through the ages do preach peace, and never war. Islam preaches sometimes peace, and sometimes war. But if Islam preaches both, which interpretation is the right one? Is it right to be at peace? Or is it right to be at war?

Islam teaches that to fight for a just cause is OK. Makes sense to me.

In fact, if both interpretations are true, an interesting paradox arises. While christianity states that non-christians cannot reach salvation (although modern Catholic teachings have denied this too), christianism doesn't state that you should kill non-christians.

Uh? What were the Crusades about?

Hebraism, which is surely theoretically less peaceful than christianism, has nonetheless a history of patience towards oppression, instead of a history of violence. Just think of the Holocaust.

Israel doesn't strike me as a bastion of tolerance.

In fact, one of the interesting aspects of Islam, is that it conquered aggressively most of the then known world, while Christianism spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades (and the crusades were a reaction to Islamic invasion), and Hebraism through migration. The crusades killed far more christians than muslims anyway. But the crusaders themselves were terribly misguided as are the fundamentalists are today.

OK so the muslims are responsible for all the pagans murdered in northern Europe?

Again let me say that I am no expert on the matter ( though I know a little) and my position is one of agnosticism. All I am stating are facts and I have no intention to incite hatred or whatever. That is clearly said in my previous posts. I should also make clear that I am not trying to reduce Islam to those quotes I mentioned. Islam is a legitimate religion and I am not in a position to judge it and I am in no way attacking it.

Yes you are, you are stating that the religion itself is more violent than Christianity. It's the same argument that I could give about Live, "It was originally marketed at DJ's, therefore it's responsible for all a brainless dance music around. Logic, SX3, and Pro Tools are much more suited for real music, and have a long history of more complex intelligently written songs, but I'm not attacking Live.... I'm in no position to judge...." I could argue all day long that I am not pointing fingers, but if I bristle at any attack on Logic....

The point I was making in previous posts is that fundamentalists are using those quotes to legitimise their murders, while most muslims don't buy into that shit. Also to contradict the statement that islam is a religion of peace, when there are quotes like that written in the koran.

There are plenty of ugly parts of every religious texts IMO, but when you start trying to justify your belief that the Koran is a violent text, and then try to state that you're not attacking Islam....
Granted the Koran has some violent parts, state what you believe but please don't go into double speak with this whole I'm not attacking..... nonsense, you are very much trying to use the Koran to state your argument that Islam is a more violent religion on the whole than others.
What bothers me is the lack of real physical evidence that any religion is any less violent than another? Even the Buddhists in Tibet backed the Nazis.....oops!
I think you're just a bit less tolerant of Islam than you are of Christianity, that's all I see here. Even suicide bombers, well you join the Green Beret, and your chances of coming home alive in full on war, are pretty slim. Of course then you can argue that young men think they are invincible, but what does that say about the people and society who send those young men in?

I'm Atheist to the core BTW, Agnostics are just Christians in doubt, according to my Christian friends....

[conny]

Even the Buddhists in Tibet backed the Nazis.....oops!

I was just about to add something naive of Buddhists...

But

Subsequently, nothing ever materialized from the Japanese and German contacts with the Tibetan Government.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakr ... tibet.html


// C

[kay101011]

pure sickness those days .. every board the same bullshit!

1) who the hell are you thinking you are?? a fucking god? .. so how can you prove than that all these attacks were done by muslims?

2) i got my food from muslims 5 days the week and they are the nicest people you can meet.

3) whats up with hundreds of tousands people killed in kongo or sudan (for instance).. is their lives less worth than some brits live? (don't get me wrong in that point please .. it's still a shame and shouldn't happen)

people are frightened because they start to realize that voilence isn't something that is just in tv and far away.