Ableton and the whole soft synth thing

[Poster]

the way something looks needs to express something about its sound character.

why?
to me the best thing about Live is that it actually doesn't try to express anything..
at least not to a level where it forces me to believe other than my own ideas..

does a Korg MS-20 say anything about it's sound? a Nord? a piano?

no.. all private associations after you heard the instrument for the first time..

so what you're saying is that Analog should have wooden side panels, Moog style potmeters, a black top plate with white silkscreened letters and signal flow diagrams..
because that's how analog synths in general look..

live's look reflects its workflow concept perfectly, but does nothing to tell you what the add on components do. its like taking an entire studio of moogs, steinways, neves, and mpcs and painting every square inch medium gray.

you think two wooden side panels on Analog would enhance your experience?

I agree that some devices could use a tad more character and visual guidance but in general they're all perfect as they are..
the best thing about them is that they don't distract you visually in any way..

They're all instruments that don't exist in real life, why would you want any visual references to real life?
That really doesn't make sense at all..


If anything they need better UI design, not a better GUI..

[Machinesworking]

They're all instruments that don't exist in real life, why would you want any visual references to real life?
That really doesn't make sense at all..

because we're visual as well as audio oriented creatures?
I like the Zebra pops up and offers a new GUI over Live's, but I get your point for sure. Some of the lamest looking GUI soft synths are some of the best (and free Crystal comes to mind)

If anything they need better UI design, not a better GUI..

Cannot argue with that, more than 128 parameters, and better workflow shortcuts to dive through racks, open the MIDI piano roll full screen, etc. would be a start.

[Poster]

a lot

preset handling definitely needs to improve..

UI wise instruments can only get better when the device view changes drastically..

[Poster]

They're all instruments that don't exist in real life, why would you want any visual references to real life?
That really doesn't make sense at all..

because we're visual as well as audio oriented creatures?
I like the Zebra pops up and offers a new GUI over Live's, but I get your point for sure. Some of the lamest looking GUI soft synths are some of the best (and free Crystal comes to mind)

I was slightly exaggerating of course.. some basic references to real life should be there.. squared dials anyone?
but to what extend? I think Ableton pretty much found a nice position on the abstract scale where they build their own character and visual language..

Crystal is terrible indeed..

[tylenol]

Re/preset changes: Urs heckman among others mentioned that the one reason he decided to make changing presets in Zebra, Filterscape etc. a mouse click instead of MIDI controllable via preset change commands was that with bigger soft synths with hundreds of parameters that would be morphed instantly by this, it was entirely possible to crash the plug in too many ways. I remember reading that about five years ago, and seeing it in action with reactor.

Actually, I think the latest betas of zebra have midi program change support; so I guess he's gotten around those problems (there was some demand for this for film scoring I believe). Or at least convinced himself that risking this kind of morphing is worth it.

[jlgrimes]

man - now I've switched to another set which has Analog in it and I tried changing the preset

Having to actually always sit there with hotswap engaged and not click anything else at risk of disengaging it, then use the arrow keys and hit enter every time I change presets - total hassle compared to using a program change button which is always active

it's convenient when using the mouse though

That's its main weakness is that it relies too much on the mouse,

They need to get endless encoders involved in the picture and/or total computer keyboard navigation and reduce the mouse usage.

Usually I just want to turn a knob/ or use a search function to find what I want. Clicking through a synth menus is sometimes too slow (although it has its advantages at times.)

[scientist]

so what you're saying is that Analog should have wooden side panels, Moog style potmeters, a black top plate with white silkscreened letters and signal flow diagrams..
because that's how analog synths in general look..

that's not what i'm saying at all. its all about differentiation relative to function (as opposed to style). the only way that ableton differentiates between component functions is by location on screen, and even that is one of the paradigms that is failing as more features come into play with the newer add ons.

think one level in abstraction up from what you wrote and you'll get the drift. its not about the color or wood panels or whatever, as much as it is that sensible panel layout aids in identification with a particular piece of hardware. the 4x4 grid of mpc pads, the 16 step sequence pads of an electribe, the faders on a mixing board, etc. etc. this sort of functionality, and subsequent identification with what a thing actually does, is what the live paradigm sacrifices in order to keep its uniform appearance. i'm not even saying that there is some solution, or that it is something that ableton needs to fix, just that it is a handicap in their push to make fully integrated instruments.

[Poster]

think one level in abstraction up from what you wrote and you'll get the drift.

I think we agree on that..

the biggest problem is screenspace..
the uniform approach is a big space saver though often usability pays the price..

[Homebelly]

I actually quite like Lives GUI and how the work space is set up.
The third party plugs i use mostly are Massive, FM8, Absynth and Reaktor.
I've even gone so far as to build racks with the live macros linked to the control macros of Massive or Absynth one for one, it works a little differently with FM8 and I rarely bother when using R5... the macros in the live rack are permanently mapped to the controller macros in the actual plug. Then, if i want to control some specific element of the hosted synth i just do all of that pluming in the synth ,, this works best in Massive as it is just a case of drag and drop.
I love Forges banking idea using the drum rack type UI buttons along with the instrument rack Macros, combine that with live being able to see more than 128 parameters and we have a winner. Having said that, im quite happy with the 8 controls i have already in a rack as they allow me to control the most useful elements of the synths patch, i would like to see more than the 128 parameters though...
The reason i like this method is because i quite like lives GUI and how it all fits together and so racking up 3rd party plugs means i can hide them for the most part and so don't become a distraction or take up screen space..

[john gordon]

sold all of my ableton ,add on toys and have never looked back.

[sunrahrahrah]

First thing for me about this discussion is the complaint about the presets. I agree that the presets that came with Operator are not very good, or at the very least there should be more of them. However, I think as soon as possible you should divorce yourself from reliance on presets anyway. At this point I dont go anywhere near the presets that shipped with live, and that goes for almost all instruments and effects. Its much more fun and satisfying to make your own.

Second thing, I really really like Operator now. I've been using a certain emulation of an old vintage synth as well, and while it sounds good, there is a TON of glitchy things that happen to me. Sometimes pressing the down key will change its preset even when Im not clicked on the instrument. If I map a ton of parameters to an xy controller I crash Live. These things never happen to me with Operator. While I don't like the new instruments at all, I'm pretty happy with Operator and Sampler, and would rather use those if I need to use software based instruments. My only real complaint about Operator is that it could be developed waaaaay farther (completely modular routing structure, two more operators for 6 op fm). And it sucks cpu. I programmed a pad patch the other day that is doing like 60% without any additional effects after it, just uses the lfo and pitch mod within operator with 6 voices. Thats pretty unacceptable.

As for live itself....the 128 parameters thing is a big deal and should be cleared up. If they could fix that, add lfo's to modulate parameters in the software then I would be very happy.

[Homebelly]

As for live itself....the 128 parameters thing is a big deal and should be cleared up. If they could fix that, add lfo's to modulate parameters in the software then I would be very happy.

If your talking about a stand alone LFO as a device that can be routed all over every where to modulate controls in other live devices then i couldn't agree more . In fact i would love to see this take shape as an even simpler version of simpler that would allow you to load your own single cycle samples and would have a modulation matrix that can then be routed through the macro controls.
I have experimented making very basic wave table synths using stacked simpler/samplers in a rack and sweeping through them using chains and macro controls combined with velocity and key switching and its a whole bunch of fun, but i would love to be able to add modulation control of filters and so on out side of the rack using LFO's. I can also see this kind of setup taxing my CPU up the ya-ya,, but i also love the idea of all of the fun i would have using the architecture wav's http://www.galbanum.com/products/archit ... eforms-ce/ in this kind of modular environment. The whole of Live would then become a giant frankensynth that could do all of what Absynth and Rapture can do,, and a whole lot more.
Oh!
And while we are at it,,,
I would also love to see a step sequencer as a modulation device as well.
I got to be on the circle beta group and the step sequencer modulation sources in that are the freaking bomb!!!

[forge]

the way something looks needs to express something about its sound character.

why?
to me the best thing about Live is that it actually doesn't try to express anything..
at least not to a level where it forces me to believe other than my own ideas..

does a Korg MS-20 say anything about it's sound? a Nord? a piano?

no.. all private associations after you heard the instrument for the first time..

so what you're saying is that Analog should have wooden side panels, Moog style potmeters, a black top plate with white silkscreened letters and signal flow diagrams..
because that's how analog synths in general look..

live's look reflects its workflow concept perfectly, but does nothing to tell you what the add on components do. its like taking an entire studio of moogs, steinways, neves, and mpcs and painting every square inch medium gray.

you think two wooden side panels on Analog would enhance your experience?

I agree that some devices could use a tad more character and visual guidance but in general they're all perfect as they are..
the best thing about them is that they don't distract you visually in any way..

They're all instruments that don't exist in real life, why would you want any visual references to real life?
That really doesn't make sense at all..


If anything they need better UI design, not a better GUI..

your post surprised me a little here Poster because I think what he's referring to is not a lot different to the discussions we've been having about Impulse vs Drum racks

the the think with the MS-20 that you mention is that the interface is immediate and you can access controls right there in front of you - just like we were saying about impulse, it's not the wooden panels, it;s the usability

TBH as always I think the simplest solution is the most likely, so I think a lot would be solved if you could just drag the device view upwards and certainly in the case of drum racks/pads and macros if they extended too then a lot of the cramped feeling would disappear

but I can't help feeling that synths like analog could benefit from opening up in a floating window and showing more at once - or at least when you drag the device view up...but my guess is it won't change - so I just think I probably wont use it much - and that's the conclusion I'm steadily coming to now with all these things, I've registered my thoughts, time to move on

[forge]

First thing for me about this discussion is the complaint about the presets. I agree that the presets that came with Operator are not very good, or at the very least there should be more of them. However, I think as soon as possible you should divorce yourself from reliance on presets anyway. At this point I dont go anywhere near the presets that shipped with live, and that goes for almost all instruments and effects. Its much more fun and satisfying to make your own.

.

actually I've generally always been the same, my point is really that it stands out so dramatically when you load up some VSTi synths that it really makes it apparent how lacking the Ableton ones are

it's inspiring to load up really good presets, I still change them and tailor them to what I want, but it;s less work if it's already mostly there

and it totally depends what you're doing, sometimes you might know exactly what you want and how to get there, other times you might want to flick through presets and get inspired that way

[Sibanger]

First thing for me about this discussion is the complaint about the presets. I agree that the presets that came with Operator are not very good, or at the very least there should be more of them. However, I think as soon as possible you should divorce yourself from reliance on presets anyway. At this point I dont go anywhere near the presets that shipped with live, and that goes for almost all instruments and effects. Its much more fun and satisfying to make your own.

.

actually I've generally always been the same, my point is really that it stands out so dramatically when you load up some VSTi synths that it really makes it apparent how lacking the Ableton ones are

it's inspiring to load up really good presets, I still change them and tailor them to what I want, but it;s less work if it's already mostly there

and it totally depends what you're doing, sometimes you might know exactly what you want and how to get there, other times you might want to flick through presets and get inspired that way

+1

I'd also like to add that the presets should be able to show the quality of the instrument at its best.
Many people getting into synthesis for the early part of their journey also need good presets, cause they don't know how to create what they hear inside their minds as yet.
It is also a good way to learn. 'Oh, so thats what they did to get that sound' kind of thing.