ChucK vs Max/MSP vs SuperCollider vs Pure Data vs Processing

spkey · Post by **spkey** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:18 am

Hi all,

I have recently started getting interested in programming. It seems there are a few programming languages out there for audio synthesis and manipulation and would like to try and learn one.

Does anyone here have some experience with any of the above? Which of the above is the simplest to start with? Simplest I mean in terms of code, community strength, amount of material and tutorials out there and so on. I 've got a tiny bit of experience with .NET and C# (not substantial). I understand all the above but Max/MSP are open source but if Max is the simplest I don't mind spending the money.

Many thanks!
sp.

pepezabala · Post by **pepezabala** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:45 am

max has a huge community and the new version seems to be super-duper-redesigned and have a very comfortable documentation/help-file-design.

I started to play a little bit with pd and after one week of struggling I learned quite fast. There is a quite academic publication from Miller Puckette on the web
http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/techniques/latest/book-html/, that gives a full overview to sound synthesis.

I have no idea about chuck and supercollider.

littlepig · Post by **littlepig** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:18 pm

I just found this pure data tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkmMzqohsDo

Which seemed a pretty good starter to me. Don't know aobut the other programming languages mentioned.

mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:51 pm

ChucK is fun, and if you have done C/C++ or Java and like to progam bits of code that do small neat things it's a snap to get started with and start putting pieces together. and it's free. It's fun to build little gizmos. If you are into more esoteric musical elements (like microtonal tuniings) you can easily do things that are difficult to do otherwise.

However, if you would prefer to create full bodied mainstream-sounding synths by connecting a few boxes im a GUI programming environment, or don't like hacking around/messing with code/puzzling through and debugging a little, it will not be fun.

pixelmechanic · Post by **pixelmechanic** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:57 pm

I'm not sure that I'd describe MaxMSP and PD as programming languages per se, due to their visual approach to patching. In that regard I think they're pretty easy to get your head around compared to the other languages mentioned and for Max there is a large user base, good forum and good documentation/helpfiles

Max does offer Java and JS objects, which I make quite a lot of use of for more procedural interface work. Java [mxj] runs just about fast enough for you to do signal based operations. People have also written objects for plugging in / connectiong to other scripting languages such as perl, ruby, lisp etc

Supercollider users often say that SC sounds better, and personally I agree... however for the kinds of things that I do in Max via JS easily, learning new syntax is proving a PITA! If you've got nothing to unlearn though it's a lot of fun with some great out-of-the-box ugens and good support.

Chuck, for me, is a bit of an academic research project. I can't see the point of it given Supercollider but apparently the timing is good and you can edit a running process/program on the fly (if you can think and type that fast)... It's still quite new so a small user base. There's a lot of interest in it on the monome site though.

The audio capabilities of Processing are pretty limited, so I'd forget that one for now. Loads of fun for visuals though!

Although I find it easier to express myself logically in a code based platform, there's something to be said for seeing where patch-cables flow in MaxMSP (and PD) and it's a really fast way to prototype and experiment... your mileage might differ.

spkey · Post by **spkey** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:51 pm

pixelmechanic wrote:there's something to be said for seeing where patch-cables flow in MaxMSP (and PD) and it's a really fast way to prototype and experiment... your mileage might differ.

So is PD and MaxMSP similar to Reaktor and SynthMaker?

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:59 pm

PD and Max are actually a bit more capable than Reaktor or Synthmaker.

SynthMaker does what it says on the tin, it makes synths (and effects), whereas most people I know who use Max use it to interface with the outside world ... such as controlling robot insects.
I think that's a reasonable indicator of the differences !

I use SynthMaker because my main requirement is making instruments and effects, I know that if I start treading the 'robot insect' route my musical output will suffer. Synthmaker allows me to code in both a C type script and also ASM, if I really want to, but still get quick results.

If you think you will be developing physical interfaces or doing more 'academic' work then I would say you should aim for PD or Max. If you just want to knock up an effect, or a particular softsynth idea .. perhaps SynthMaker might be a better use of time.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:33 pm

pixelmechanic wrote:I'm not sure that I'd describe MaxMSP and PD as programming languages per se, due to their visual approach to patching.

The term is actually "visual programming", which does make a bit of sense.

i was somewhat shocked to find that maxMSP 4.6 was actually EASIER to use than Reaktor, at least for me. A lot easier, in fact, and it's easier to move off into your own world of sound than in Reaktor.

The support is brilliant, the documentation is the best in the industry, and the community is really great. Having said that, it's not free. It's worth every penny, tho.

I wouldnt go PD unless I wanted a fully-open-source machine, linux and all.

Supercollider can be quite annoying, and it's a bit more difficult to interface with, from my experience.

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:57 pm

Max is not hard to learn. All you need to do is keep with the material and. Do the tutorials and keep coming back to it. The new update looks like it will make it a lot easier to get into and learn. I'm not allowed to use it yet though, because I have existing projects and deadlines.

I would think of it as better investment of your time. You will not have to worry about wasting time on workarounds, because you can build anything with it.

synnack · Post by **synnack** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:41 pm

I've only used Max, Pd, and reaktor. Can't comment on the others.

I decided to go forward with Max. The tutorials are top notch. In fact, even if you go with something else, I'd read the max tutorials. If you go through those exercises you can go from no knowledge to dangerous very quickly.

Max also has the advantage of potential cool ableton integration in the future.

It's fucking expensive though.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:53 pm

I just checked out the new tutorials... DAMN, they're even better than the old ones!

And it's so cool to have the new objects, too. Current fave:

(zl lookup)

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:07 pm

yes, some good tutorials there.
nice examples, documentation interface works well.

I just need to find enough time in my schedule to try it out fully. I'm much too busy right now to attempt what I want to attempt. 16 days of demo remaining. damn time expiry demos, I'd much prefer a BEEP on output or a required restart every 20 minutes.

frahnque · Post by **frahnque** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:21 pm

Machinate wrote:I just checked out the new tutorials... DAMN, they're even better than the old ones!

And it's so cool to have the new objects, too. Current fave:

(zl lookup)

On the tutorials:
There's still some stuff I'd love to see... Pictures! I know that for a lot of people, reading will suffice. I like to read, mostly on real paper though, but I am also in heavy need of pictures. I don't mean cartoons of course, but rather some thing to sort of anchor the text in. This shouldn't be too hard I take it, and I wonder why they did not put any pictures of the actual patches (or parts of them) in, I don't have the printed manual though (I have the download version).

And on that subject. Machinate, I know you are a magician with Max/MSP/Jitter, and I also know that you do video tutorials for Live, why not cook up some basics about Max / MSP / Jitter? I think it's really needed.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:23 pm

frahnque wrote:And on that subject. Machinate, I know you are a magician with Max/MSP/Jitter, and I also know that you do video tutorials for Live, why not cook up some basics about Max / MSP / Jitter? I think it's really needed.

hey man!

I don't know why not, actually? Sure could use a few out there. Will give it a good think.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:26 pm

frahnque wrote:
Machinate wrote:I just checked out the new tutorials... DAMN, they're even better than the old ones!

And it's so cool to have the new objects, too. Current fave:

(zl lookup)
On the tutorials:
There's still some stuff I'd love to see... Pictures! I know that for a lot of people, reading will suffice. I like to read, mostly on real paper though, but I am also in heavy need of pictures. I don't mean cartoons of course, but rather some thing to sort of anchor the text in. This shouldn't be too hard I take it, and I wonder why they did not put any pictures of the actual patches (or parts of them) in, I don't have the printed manual though (I have the download version).

And on that subject. Machinate, I know you are a magician with Max/MSP/Jitter, and I also know that you do video tutorials for Live, why not cook up some basics about Max / MSP / Jitter? I think it's really needed.

IMO the help files ARE outstanding graphical examples, what more would you want? there's the patch, here are some dials and sliders to exercise the patch, here are boxes to read the output and btw here are some related topics.

then there's the 'clue' box that's very similar to the help box in Live, very cool. (is it called 'clue' I don't have max with me.)