Syncing 7 laptops, and getting the best out of it...

tundravisions · Post by **tundravisions** » Fri May 09, 2008 11:55 am

Hi Guys,

We, from the Manual Music label, have been commisioned a 7-laptop orchestra performance, in the Melkweg (Holland)...

we've now got a 80-mail conversation on gmail going on, about how to solve the problem of syncing, and managing spontanious actions with 7 people playing...

First of all: How would you guys sync 7 laptops (steadily)?
We thought about this one:
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodt8.htm

Second: Do you guys have any ideas on how to divide tasks when playing live techno with 7 persons?

The setup will consist of both MAC and PC's.

Really curious for your opinions!

RhythmSickness · Post by **RhythmSickness** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:09 pm

I'd primarily recommend syncing all the lappies and lives to a single master clock, from a hardware sequencer, or drum machine. Quite how you're going to do that with seven destinations I'm not very sure. Though you are probably going to want to look at a midi patchbay, like the ones made by MOTU that can patch a single source to upto eight outputs.

Also I would probably recommend people to take on roles, and work on different parts of the sound, and lots of rehearsing, as with seven people doing things at once, even if perfectly synced, it's got a lot of potential to go pear-shaped.

Can't really offer you much more advice than that as seven people is four more than I've ever worked with. But good luck it sounds an interesting project.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:14 pm

definitely run everything from hardware, and then distribute from one system, like MOTU units or this one:
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodt8.htm

- it's 200 usd, well worth it.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:15 pm

http://www.thomann.de/de/midi_solutions_t8_thru.htm

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:19 pm

I really wish they used a better protocol for syncing than midi. FFS all this technology at our disposal, ethernet usb firewire wifi bluetooth yadda yadda ... and we're still using this lowbandwith MIDI for sync AND data.

RhythmSickness · Post by **RhythmSickness** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:19 pm

I was thinking of these units
http://www.motu.com/products/midi/128/
as they're quite cheap, but the older versions, that work off of serial connections are also around, on ebay for example and are substantially cheaper, while still retaining the same functionality, of being a standalone midi patchbay, which gives you a little more flexibility than just having a large thru box

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:33 pm

RhythmSickness wrote:I was thinking of these units
http://www.motu.com/products/midi/xpressxt_usb/ as they're quite cheap, but the older versions, that work off of serial connections are also around, on ebay for example and are substantially cheaper, while still retaining the same functionality, of being a standalone midi patchbay, which gives you a little more flexibility than just having a large thru box

uhm, but how would that help? You and I agree that the best clock comes from hardware. Alright that means 1 input to "box X" is needed. That then needs to be distributed to 8 machines. Easiest way is to give them a midi input and send clock to that. Hence "1 in, 8 out" - an 8 out USB box won't help either way, it can only be connected to one machine via usb, the rest has to be Midi anyway...

Alternatively:

1 mac Mini, providin a high-res clock signal over either ethernet or a 12-32bit something sensor input for the other machines.

If I was going to geek way out about it I'd use a master computer ONLY generating clock, and then the 8 machines, all connected to one central 12-port switch. If you have the spare machine it would cost roughly the same, and the patching is somewhat trivial.

I have synced two systems over ethernet using [phasor~] and [rate~] over USB via Jitter. terribly convoluted, but it does work. I'd still prefer the oldskool midi.

RhythmSickness · Post by **RhythmSickness** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:35 pm

Machinate wrote:
RhythmSickness wrote:I was thinking of these units
http://www.motu.com/products/midi/xpressxt_usb/ as they're quite cheap, but the older versions, that work off of serial connections are also around, on ebay for example and are substantially cheaper, while still retaining the same functionality, of being a standalone midi patchbay, which gives you a little more flexibility than just having a large thru box
uhm, but how would that help? You and I agree that the best clock comes from hardware. Alright that means 1 input to "box X" is needed. That then needs to be distributed to 8 machines. Easiest way is to give them a midi input and send clock to that. Hence "1 in, 8 out" - an 8 out USB box won't help either way, it can only be connected to one machine via usb, the rest has to be Midi anyway...

Alternatively:

1 mac Mini, providin a high-res clock signal over either ethernet or a 12-32bit something sensor input for the other machines.

If I was going to geek way out about it I'd use a master computer ONLY generating clock, and then the 8 machines, all connected to one central 12-port switch. If you have the spare machine it would cost roughly the same, and the patching is somewhat trivial.

I have synced two systems over ethernet using [phasor~] and [rate~] over USB via Jitter. terribly convoluted, but it does work. I'd still prefer the oldskool midi.

they're not just an 8in 8 out device, the older versions are standalone midi patchbays, that don't require a computer and can route any input to any output, so clock from hardware to midi in one, clock out to seven laptops

tundravisions · Post by **tundravisions** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:37 pm

thanks so far for all your help so far...

wouldnt there be a way to daisychain all computers through midiports on soundcards / controllers?
(of course with the obligatory delay-compensations

)

???

Anybody experienced on that?

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:38 pm

RhythmSickness wrote:they're not just an 8in 8 out device, the older versions are standalone midi patchbays, that don't require a computer and can route any input to any output, so clock from hardware to midi in one, clock out to seven laptops

ah, well then we agree, lol! Only my suggestion costs half that

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:39 pm

tundravisions wrote:wouldnt there be a way to daisychain all computers through midiports on soundcards / controllers?
(of course with the obligatory delay-compensations )

???

Anybody experienced on that?

Daisychaining is a biiiig no-no. You can't simply compensate for the delay, since input/output also causes... JITTER... eek!

RhythmSickness · Post by **RhythmSickness** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:39 pm

Machinate wrote:
RhythmSickness wrote:they're not just an 8in 8 out device, the older versions are standalone midi patchbays, that don't require a computer and can route any input to any output, so clock from hardware to midi in one, clock out to seven laptops
ah, well then we agree, lol! Only my suggestion costs half that

lol yeah we agree, the older models of motu unit go for about the same price though, I've seen them for around £90-£100

RhythmSickness · Post by **RhythmSickness** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:40 pm

Machinate wrote:
tundravisions wrote:wouldnt there be a way to daisychain all computers through midiports on soundcards / controllers?
(of course with the obligatory delay-compensations )

???

Anybody experienced on that?
Daisychaining is a biiiig no-no. You can't simply compensate for the delay, since input/output also causes... JITTER... eek!

plus the delay is going to vary depending upon system load across the seven units as well, which is going to be impossible to work out

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:42 pm

RhythmSickness wrote:
Machinate wrote:
RhythmSickness wrote:they're not just an 8in 8 out device, the older versions are standalone midi patchbays, that don't require a computer and can route any input to any output, so clock from hardware to midi in one, clock out to seven laptops
ah, well then we agree, lol! Only my suggestion costs half that
lol yeah we agree, the older models of motu unit go for about the same price though, I've seen them for around £90-£100

ah, that's a cool price, I reckon. Ýou can't go wrong with MOTU. Also the Emagic Unitor8 has a patchbay mode, i love mine

tundravisions · Post by **tundravisions** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:44 pm

RhythmSickness wrote:
Machinate wrote:
tundravisions wrote:wouldnt there be a way to daisychain all computers through midiports on soundcards / controllers?
(of course with the obligatory delay-compensations )

???

Anybody experienced on that?
Daisychaining is a biiiig no-no. You can't simply compensate for the delay, since input/output also causes... JITTER... eek!
plus the delay is going to vary depending upon system load across the seven units as well, which is going to be impossible to work out

which would give us VERY interesting unpredictable tempo-swings, if we wouldnt be bound to a jacking 4/4 metrum hahaha.

HMMMM...

Is Robert Henke on this board sometimes?

I would be very interested in how the whole "Narod Niki" thing was set up back then!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee2FZ8LY ... re=related