Popslut's scientific "analogue summing vs. ITB test.

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
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thefool
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Post by thefool » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:21 pm

Tarekith wrote:
thefool wrote:now i'm going to say something here which might sound stupid but isn't that just clipping on your own gear? I mean seriously if you keep it under clipping point and run it through whatever won't it sound as it should? I know we discussed CD players before.
Not neccesarily. The common issue is intersample modulation distortion, well it's not common so much anymore, but that's the main one you see discussed. Anyway, the basic premise is that even if you keep the audio signal at or below 0dBFS in your studio, it's possible for the consumer's D/A to misinterpret multiple max sample values as being a waveform higher than 0dB. So while you can't clip above 0dB digitally, the D/A will create a waveform greater than 0dB and the analog stage of the D/A then clips. We're talking microseconds here, but with all the heavy limiting that goes on in today's music, that adds up. That's one reason most professional mastering engineers will NEVER set the final output of the mastering chain higher than say -0.3 to -0.1dBFS, to avoid the potential for this happening.

Like the whole "digital is harsh" campaign, it's more an issue with older DAC's than anything recent, but it can happen there too in some cases. Considering it's only 0.1dBFS you need to lower the level to prevent this, better safe than sorry. Personally I use 0.2 myself.
Thanks for the clearance :)
Yeah i know a german engineer telling me to keep it at -0.3 due to many cd players and low quality units might begin to introduce clipping already at that point (or rather he told me to keep it under 0, and that -0.3 was a good suggestion)

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:12 am

popslut wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
pops - my $0.02 is that the real horsepower of an analog desk would be in...
The analogy I always use is that, for me, mixing ITB is like trying to peel an orange with chopsticks.

Or painting your hallway through the letterbox [mail slot?].


Years ago I used to make music with no controller keyboard - just inputting notes with a mouse and editing. Then, one day, somebody lent me a Kurzweil K2000 synth which I plugged in and used as a master kybd and my music got better overnight. The difference was dramatic.

Now, I could possibly have emulated what I played by inputting it one note at a time but I suspect without the five octave keyboard in front of me I'd never have come up with the ideas in the first place; the means of input fundamentally affected the nature of the output.

I'm pretty sure it's a tactile thing. I'm used to being able to squidge the sound into the right shape with two hands and ten fingers like it's made out of clay and the mouse/keyboard method just feels like a creativity bottleneck to me.


I'll keep trying to wrap my head around ITB mixing but I think I'll be keeping my console for a while yet.

Ever tried performing a live dub mix with a mouse?


Cheers to that bro, I gotta admit during my transition to ITB i had a really rough time getting it right. But, I didn't have a console of my own at home so I was forced into it. It took quite a few mix projects and i did quite a few mediocre mixes before i fell into the slot. I failed a lot.

I'd say the simplest thing that improves my mixes the most ITB is the listen 3 or more days later. Ya know when you give it a listen after all that time, your head is so cleared out that the next few adjustments with the first few minutes makes all the dif. Or just being able to quickly fix the "what was I thinking?"

Right now i'm on a digidesign d-show everyday.

Wish I had an Icon for my rig. Mouse mixing is a drag.

Oh, Tone Deft 1, Timur 0

doc holiday
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Post by doc holiday » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:27 am

so in the end, it's not what you think, but how you think it?

Khazul
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Post by Khazul » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:33 am

Sounds like with your attitude someone needs to stick an icepick thorugh your fucking skull anyway - regardless of taste in gear...

:roll:
Nothing to see here - move along!

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:38 am

Just wanted to post in this thread.
later. 8)

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:01 am

Khazul wrote:Sounds like with your attitude someone needs to stick an icepick thorugh your fucking skull anyway - regardless of taste in gear...

:roll:
Ok, i'll bite on that. Could you be more specific?

Khazul
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Post by Khazul » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:03 am

Read up the thred with a search for icepick :)

I couldnt be arsed to quote.
Nothing to see here - move along!

dcease
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Post by dcease » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:07 am

dcease had wrote:a bunch of words...

always listen to the doctor :lol:
Last edited by dcease on Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

doc holiday
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Post by doc holiday » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:10 am

dcease wrote:
it depends on the end user, right?

now fuck off. all of you.



;)

dcease
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Post by dcease » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:11 am

should i edit? :lol:

popslut
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Post by popslut » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:42 am

knotkranky wrote:I didn't have a console of my own at home so I was forced into it.
Well I might be in that situation myself soon.

My mixer's automation computer has just started playing up this last week and, according to the manufacturer and the main European service agent, if it goes "phut!" it is irrepairable. They don't make the chips anymore.

I'd have no option but to put my $30,000 console in the dumpster.

That'll feel weird if it happens I can tell you.

Timur
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Post by Timur » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:52 am

knotkranky wrote:Oh, Tone Deft 1, Timur 0
Where did I miss the contest?

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:28 pm

popslut wrote:
knotkranky wrote:I didn't have a console of my own at home so I was forced into it.
Well I might be in that situation myself soon.

My mixer's automation computer has just started playing up this last week and, according to the manufacturer and the main European service agent, if it goes "phut!" it is irrepairable. They don't make the chips anymore.

I'd have no option but to put my $30,000 console in the dumpster.

That'll feel weird if it happens I can tell you.
Yeah , it'll be weird. But changes like that have happened to you a bunch and I bet yer adaptive skills are better than ever. Even going from neve to ssl messed my groove up for a minute and I ended up a bigger ssl fan. So no worries there. Maybe you should be massaging a few ITB mixes until that day to get some feel. Pop one mix no matter how long it takes and you'll be killing it in no time. Lovin it too i bet.

Timur, just messin with u about your exchange with Tone. Umm, simplistic dig engine specs don't mean a thing to music. Not a single soul on this forum is qualified to investigate dsp math or explain why one is better through math. Those types of folks are light years away from music, so i chose to be light years away from them, lol. integers and floating whatever's got no place in our worlds. Use what's stable and sounds amazing.

Protool nay sayers gotta remember that the Protools platform started as a high-end audio platform that reacted to requests for a native app version- PT le. Cubase and it's cousins went from a killer midi, plinky audio app to Nuendo. Those are two very different paths. Nuendo and others had the benefit of riding on PT's wake, and PT benefited by beating everybody to the punch and by catering to the recording pro's. So, railing on protools is like railing on the history of digital audio.

Moody
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Post by Moody » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:24 pm

Wow, a nice little documented test has turned into a gross argument?

There is no justification to any of the tools one chooses except for one’s own justification. I thought we would have figured that out by now. If I can convey exactly what I want with a pair of spoons then obviously I do not need to go out and buy the most expensive near field monitors. If I can get the sound I want out of Live on my laptop alone then I have succeeded as well. Whatever it takes to get to where you want to go is the source of why all of these things exist. May some of them pose a placebo effect? Very possible but, who gives a fuck if it makes you happy with your final sound.

Hope this helps everybody calm down. I chased the gear gods and the software gods for a long time to finally come up with less seems to do more for me but, this is not the case for every person who is trying to accomplish something. It is a nice warning to convey to others though.

Besides, 2012 is only 4 years away so none of this will matter soon anyways.
:P
Ableton’s engineers are hard
at work developing code that will allow our software to predict the future, but we don’t
anticipate having this available until at least the next major release.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:26 pm

What happens in 2012?

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