About to become a Switcher ... a thinkpattern

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:43 am

First of all let me say i've been using [and building my ] PC's for the last 15 years and using OS as diverse as Windows, OpenBSD, Linux , ... so I like to think I know something about computers in general ...

In fact I only came back to Windows because of the available music software.... otherwise I'd gladly use OpenBSD on ALL of my machines.
[ Btw if anyone knows of the possibility to run PD on openBSD I'm very interested to know ]

Untill now my Athlon 1Ghz desktop under win 2000 serves me excellent for what I want to do musicwise and considering I even have only 256 MB Ram I even have performance increase potential .

However I need to become more mobile , so a laptop acquisition imposes itself. Mainly for playing out live , for studiowork I still can rely on my current workstation.

My first reaction was to go with what I know , being Intel/AMD based hardware and the subsequent OS. So I was about to shed out 1800 Euro for a quite topend Toshiba .

But when thinking things through and admitting that in fact I hardly max out my current setup [hardly 55% ], I started to question my decision.

So I started looking at the secondhand market of reliable brandnames for audio [Toshiba/IBM/Sony] of 1-1.5Ghz machines, to conclude that the prices over (t)here weren't much different from an Ibook G4 1ghz 12' ... but NEW ...

with the added benefit of more than good onboard audio [in comparison with the PC laptopfield - from what I've read several pro performers even use the onboard audio of Ibook live for playing out - QUESTION : What latency do you get out of the Ibook onboard audio ? ] , a Unix based OS [which I like] , low weight [2.2 kg, if I'm not mistaking], ... and for the 7200 rpm FW drive , you have to buy it in either way ...

Plugin wise coincidently all the plugins I use have AU or Mac VST equivalents [ QUESTION : when transferring a Livesetfrom PC to Mac with all VST directory Paths set, will Live/mac recognise eg. Supatrigga from the original Live/PC file ? ] .

So this little white box really is an excellent deal for audio artists [especially when you don't buy the extra needed Ram from Apple but from a third party ] .... and that's said from a complete Mac knitwit ...

So with all this I guess I just want to say that it might really pay off to think through and analyze what all YOUR needs ACTUALLY are ... not what all the marketing hype makes you beleive your needs are ....

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:14 am

Mbazzy:

I too am a fan of supatrigga!

More importantly I too have a lot of experience in posix compliant OS's. I have also been a supervising technician over nearly a thousand end users in the higher education market, on Macs, PCs, and Sun workstations... yet I have always been a fan of the Mac OS, but Mac OS X is like no other operating system that has come before it. Many of the users on this forum have a hard time seeing through computer manufactuers hype (and that is not to say that Apple is not responsible for creating a lot of hype itself!) but it all boils down to the fact that windows will never be anything more than windows. I can only hope that you will find the joy of OS X as many before you have...

BTW: Apples built in hardware is (although limited to 16bit 44.1kHz) is incredibly stable (I run Live's buffer @ 256 samples equating to a 6ms latency off my builtin 4200rpm HDD)

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:17 am

Also check this info:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8545

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:25 am

I dunno mbazzy, I'm looking forward to a mac laptop in the future but right now, it's shakey ground, you might want to ask tjwett about it, though he's on the new 12" I think not the white one. I'm one of those dual
platform people, I had an 600mhz ibook, then a sony, now a panasonic w2
and I must say that the centrino 900mhZ does kick some surreal butt, and the battery last, also when using the battery I don't notice any difference than when using the adapter, all things being said all pc puters are not created equal, some folks hate that and think it's a weakness I for
one like that about the pc market, I think it would suck bigtime if pc laptop
choices were limited as apples, for instance I have a smartcard reader in mine that has been very useful, and my whole laptop only ways 2.8lb with the battery installed.

I'm probably going to be one of the first people to get a g5 when they come out, but not out of necessity, just because I like both platforms, hardware and software. It might not be the wisest thing to base a purchase like that on the fact that you're only hitting 55% right now, there
is no telling what percentage you'll use in the future.

and after rambling all of that I'm just trying to say, it' s a good thing to have a pc around, and since you do, maybe you should get an ibook.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:29 am

hey mbazzy got a question about Live and supatrigga, how do you use supatrigga on a track, lets say track one on a drum beat but turn it down so that you're not using the full supertrigga sound, like if you only want the beat to be effected a little bit?

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:33 am

Anonymous wrote:hey mbazzy got a question about Live and supatrigga, how do you use supatrigga on a track, lets say track one on a drum beat but turn it down so that you're not using the full supertrigga sound, like if you only want the beat to be effected a little bit?

How about putting SupaTrigga on a send channel ?

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:35 am

Sorry... I suppose I should have stated that I too am a dual platform user. Have had a PC since windows 3.1, and a Mac since OS 6. My very close friend has a 12" PowerBook G4 clocked at 867mHz, and has no problem running MANY plugins in Logic, and is a closet Live user as well. He rewires the two with great success and stability. Both platforms have thier pitfalls, but give OS X some time, and I am sure you will be amazed at the usability and stability.

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:42 am

Anonymous wrote:and I must say that the centrino 900mhZ does kick some surreal butt, and the battery last, also when using the battery I don't notice any difference than when using the adapter,

....

It might not be the wisest thing to base a purchase like that on the fact that you're only hitting 55% right now, there is no telling what percentage you'll use in the future.

and after rambling all of that I'm just trying to say, it' s a good thing to have a pc around, and since you do, maybe you should get an ibook.

Centrino 900 Mhz is indeed quite a hefty machine, equals roughly a 1.8-2.0 ghz P4 I guess ...

Well considering the 55% is often the topend and 35-40% is "typical", I think I'm quite safe for a while ... and we always can resample hefty efx tracks ... [ Won't Live 4.5.37 have "resample in Place" ...

]

I somehow agree that maybe for real DAW use the Ibook might be on the lowend if that's your only machine, but for a supermobile Live playing and improvisation box it is helluvadeal ... and I think I do realise the limitations - though often they're a breedingground for creativity - it might have ...

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:53 am

Centrino 900 Mhz is indeed quite a hefty machine, equals roughly a 1.8-2.0 ghz P4 I guess ...

How do you figure? Centrino is Intel's attempt to market existing wireless technologies (802.11b, 802.11g, Bluetooth), existing powersaving technologies (processor scaling, power distrubition control), and existing Intel "on chip instruction sets" (SIMD, USB 2.0 direct access). These technologies, although benifical to the enterprise class user, would be of little benifit to a Live user, and certianly would not make a 900mHz "Centrino" laptop feel like a P4.

Heres the hype:

http://www.intel.com/products/mobiletechnology/

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:58 am

Oh yeah...
I would say skip the G3 iBooks...
Although we have conformation that Live will not be taking advantage of Altivec directly (really only the Reverb and Resonator effects would even need too) OS X does use Altivec full time for fun things like GUI, quicktime, even goodies such as photoshop...

Just one more thing to consider.

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:03 am

You're right, but I was more referring to the fact that generally speaking a 900 Centrino "should" be considered a high(er) end CPU than eg. my AThlon 1Ghz , though at first glance the ghz figures would incite the inverse ...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:17 am

my good sir,

you are forcing me to defend my laptop.
my laptop will smoke any mac laptop period, I don't know about the hype
or rather I know too much about the hype of both pcs and macs, but your
comments about windows will never be anything but windows and my comment about how my laptop will smoke any mac is surely not what mbazzy wanted.

the prowess of the centrino is not a part of the hyperbole that we've all come to be used to, they perform very, very , very well,and have proven themselves repeatedly in the real world and not just using Logic audio, and the yamaha
audio chip that is in the sony laptops sounds noticably better than the macs on board sound, mind you this is coming from someone who is saving up for a mac as we speak, cause when the one I want is available I will pounce on it and I'm very keen on looking ahead.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:23 am

mbazzy, you know me well, I'd kill for that resampling feature, anyway I see your point, one of the things I loved about my ibook was how after a few minutes the laptop faded away and there was nothing but reason and Live left, another thing I found very important was the fact that the macs powered the external harddrives, I really hate the fact that most pc laptops don't, I don't know maybe it's changing now since its been close to a year since my last laptop purchase but I could never find one that could do that and it pissed me off to no end.

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:37 am

Please, do not misconstrue my words as an attack on your laptop...

Granted, the chips intel is producing under the nomer centrino are made with a superior lithographic process, not too dissimilar from that employed in the G5 and AMD's current 64bit offerings...
The improved transistor size is not where the increased performance comes from however, it is the fact that with the centrino technology Intel has begun putting larger memory caches on-chip then they often employed in thier previous designs. This element of the centrino architecture is Laudable. It should also be noted that this same technology is incorporated into G3 and G4 processors as well as many AMD and Intel desktop architectures.

Please also observe that I never attacked your laptop! Nor will you find that I even suggested it is in anyway slow, a hinderance to your Live capabilities, or productivity! All I have attempted to put forth in these posts
("windows will be windows" comment aside [for which I duly apologize, if it is your prefered platform, I can and will respect that])
is that OS X is a joy to use in every way, And can be especially fun if you know your way around a posix CLI.

pixelmechanic · Post by **pixelmechanic** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:37 am

Hey Mbazzy,

I've actually just picked up a new 1Ghz 12" iBook as a machine to keep at my girlfriends house (my other machine is an ageing TiBook 450 which I run in OS9), and to be honest I'm not really noticing much difference when running Live on the new machine...they both kick off at about 13% cpu, and when I drop in the plugs I use most (such as the superdestroy Scrubby and Transverb) I get similar cpu use to that of my TiBook...

Maybe the upcoming release will address that a bit... but given the post below, maybe not a lot...

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ht=altivec

It is very cute tho...and I do think you get a lot of bang per buck against similarly priced pcs!

The other thing to bear in mind if you are into 'rolling your own' fx is that Cycling 74 are just about to release a new version of Max / Msp that also addresses poor performance in OS X (especially Panther), so maybe between the 2 updates, things will get much better!