Test Results Sound Quality

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:17 pm

Hello,

as promised some test results:

a soundfile 16 bit 44.1kHz played back in Live unwarped with pitch 0.0 semitones plays back sample by sample, starting from the first sample to the last one, even if the file is five hours long. There is not error in the time domain. Just like it came from CD. The maximum amplitude errror which occurs during conversion from 16 bit to internal 32 bit resolution is smaler then -90dB. This will be further improved in Live 4 but even -90dB is miles away from beeing audible. And this is the maximum errror, occuring under very rare conditions. Normaly the error is as i said
zero.

Files which are rendered in Live can have a total length of one single more sample then the one selected in the arranger due to rounding errors when selecting time. But this does not alter the sound.

The high quality interpolation causes a 1 sample delay. This will be compensated in Live 4. If all files are high quality or do not have it turned on they are sample accurate in sync.

Interpolation is only applied if necessery. When playing back a 44.1 file at 44.1 it is bypassed and does not alter the sample at all.

Live 4 can deal with up to 192 kHz 24 bit. everything said for 44.1 is true for all sample rates.

Conclusion:

Live sounds like any other DAW if not warping/ streching clips.

Timestreching in Live is a compromise between performance and sound
quality. It has been dramatically improved since Live Version 1 and
we are aware that you all would love better algorithms. We would enjoy this too and we will see what solution we can offer in future versions.

Talking about Live 4: Our new sampler allows you to change start and loop point of runnnig samples in realtime without crackles. All parameters
can be modulated by clip envelopes. You can drag samples from the browser, sessionview and arranger. If you drag samples from session or arranger the region defined there is the visible part of the sample in our sampler. You can quickly choose a ten second slice out of a 1 hour recording. You can expand this region within the sampler by clicking one button. Or zoom in into more detail. It comes with excellent sounding multimode filters and is probably the fastest and most intuitive sampler in this universe. It supports sample rates up to 192 kHz, 24 bit mono or stereo.

Robert Henke
Ableton

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:36 pm

nice one. sounds great. 3 was great, 4 will be a whole new level--keep it up!!!!!!!!!

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:43 am

Thank you very much Robert, this has answered many questions stirring about in my mind regarding not only Live 3, but also what things will be like in Live 4 (specifically regarding how the Live engine works). Great news to hear from someone in the development process!

UknowWHo · Post by **UknowWHo** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:45 am

Robert NOW I truly HATE YOU

RE:Talking about Live 4 - "Our new sampler allows you to cahnge start and loop point of running sample without crackles. All parameters can be modulated by clip envelopes"

I wasn't so keen on the VST hosting in LIVE 4 myself.
More than happy with my rewire hosting capabilities.
And then you go and throw this in a thread

Oh this is so take me back to my Ensoniq EPS in a major way.
You could splice samples w/crossfades in Sounforge etc... create a loop the size of a single splice and use the clip envelopes to sweep through the custom vectors with all the yummy Abelton automation.
DIY Wavestation anyone - not to mention the added possibilities with rythmic loops ,vocal samples and the sound designer doorways a feature like that opens.

That is amazing - great feature BTW.

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:27 am

Very nice example of "Guerrilla marketing" , Robert ... LMAO ...

Keep the people hungry !

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:32 pm

Anonymous wrote:[...] The maximum amplitude errror which occurs during conversion from 16 bit to internal 32 bit resolution is smaler then -90dB. This will be further improved in Live 4 but even -90dB is miles away from beeing audible. And this is the maximum errror, occuring under very rare conditions. Normaly the error is as i said
zero.

I dont really understand this but then I'm no good in math either. How can there be an error when converting from 16 bit to 32 bit? I thought errors only came when converting from a large bit-rate to a smaller, thus the need for dithering... is there someone here who can explain?

Perhaps I'm going too much going into detail

I think Live sounds great.

Anonymous wrote: Talking about Live 4: Our new sampler allows you to change start and loop point of runnnig samples in realtime without crackles. All parameters
can be modulated by clip envelopes. You can drag samples from the browser, sessionview and arranger. If you drag samples from session or arranger the region defined there is the visible part of the sample in our sampler. You can quickly choose a ten second slice out of a 1 hour recording. You can expand this region within the sampler by clicking one button. Or zoom in into more detail. It comes with excellent sounding multimode filters and is probably the fastest and most intuitive sampler in this universe. It supports sample rates up to 192 kHz, 24 bit mono or stereo.

Robert Henke
Ableton

One of the questions I've thought about posting was actually about being able to drag clips from the session view into the simpler - and now I know this is possible!! This is just getting better and better...

the MIDI implementation and ableton instruments seem soo fast!

Keep up the good work, I think Live 4 is gonna be great!

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:47 pm

I dont really understand this but then I'm no good in math either. How can there be an error when converting from 16 bit to 32 bit? I thought errors only came when converting from a large bit-rate to a smaller, thus the need for dithering... is there someone here who can explain?

Oh, sorry, i meant 16 -> 32 -> 16. Due to rounding errors you could get into situations where the last bit is altered. But as i said, we found a way to reduce the chance that this happens.

On the other side: people ( inlcuding me ) throwing plug ins like the PSP vintage warmer in some tracks to get a more colored sound. After such operations no bit is at the same place but it sounds lovely ....

Robert
[/quote]

3phase · Post by **3phase** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:25 pm

One Question there...is Ableton Live dithering the signals before and after the Mixbus?
Are the plug ins all 32 bit?
thanks and regards,
Sven[/quote]

perry · Post by **perry** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:06 pm

god damnit people, stop wasting roberts time and let him work on the beta!

i havent been this excited about something since i was a kid waiting for a video game!

guest master 2000 · Post by **guest master 2000** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:09 pm

perry wrote:god damnit people, stop wasting roberts time and let him work on the beta! i havent been this excited about something since i was a kid waiting for a video game!

super mario bro's 2?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:00 am

bard's tale 2

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:06 am

ableton audio fx 32 bit floating point.
currently no dithering nowhere.
future versions may have dither options.
more audio fx to come in future versions.
future audio fx may have 64 bit where appropriate.

Robert

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:12 am

here's some interesting reading about the sample accuracy of FL vs. Reason--someone with the appropriate FFT analysis goobledy gook should do this test for ableton:

http://members.shaw.ca/stu.macQ/index.htm

Ryan

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:25 am

I forgot to log in for the last reply, sorry.

One observation which fits in this tread:

If you compare the sound quality of a vinyl record
with the same file taken from CD, it is obvious that in a club situation the vinyl probably will win, soundwise. People who are cutting vinyl with dance music these day are not going to reproduce the CD 1:1 but try to filter out the frequencies which will kill your ears and boost the ones which make you dance...

Usually CDs are mastered in a way that they sound good on a smal car stereo at low level. Vinyl is mastered for loud playback on large systems.

If you DJ with CDs or with files ripped from CDs you have to EQ it different f you want to get the same spectral distribution. I would not say it is impossible, but on good vinyl the mastering engineer did the job allready for you. This is why getting good sound from a 12" is usually easier then getting good sound from a CD player or laptop. Nevertheless i have heard great Live acts using nothing but the build in soundcard of their laptops. It is possible but takes some time for learning how to EQ.

Robert

muthafunka · Post by **muthafunka** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:06 am

Very true I think Robert, what people are criticizing here is not the innate 'cd sound' but the sound that has been put on the cd medium. I have hundreds of records I've made pristine recordings of (see my various other posts re: recording vinyl) and playing those recordings back from CD in a club they sound fantastic-in some cases better than the guys playing vinyl in the same clubs. Why? Because I made very high quality recordings using a hi-fi cartridge (dj carts are good but sacrifice sound for tracking and durability) and a much better preamp than the ones usually found in dj mixers. While there may be some loss in my cds due to their 'inferior/narrow' sound reproduction, the benefits contained in the recordings that they contain far outweigh that. On the couple of times that this situation occurred (I was overseas travelling light and being able to carry 300 tracks on 30 cds was far more appealing than 100 tracks in a godawful heavy box) I stepped up to start playing and the sound at the party came ALIVE and people went crazy. Why? People were dancing to cds but feeling the vinyl sweetness.
So my point in this (sorry) long blurb is don't get too hung up on the medium, your sound is only as good as the weakest link/s in your chain. The cut on your record may sound fine but if the parts after that ain't up to scratch then any benefits may be lost, don't get hung up on being a purist and go for the best option given the circumstances.

Test Results Sound Quality

Test Results Sound Quality

Re: Test Results Sound Quality