Eno Quote

forge · Post by **forge** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:55 am

Angstrom wrote:
sure, we make now make our mini symphonies, but that doesn't preclude having a drunken strum-along. The two things are not musically exclusive.

I think perhaps we are actually agreeing with differing words - we have laptops now and you can plug them into the living room stereo and things like Live are making it more possible to jam electronically, but given a chance I think most electronic musicians would still pick up a guitar, bongos or whatever if intending to have a jam - it's just more immediate and actually most likely more fun

Angstrom wrote: Now you made a bit of a straw man argument about "some pissed arsehole singing danny boy over the top" . That is fallacious because when a group of friends get together in the real world to sit around playing music - you don't invite a drunk tramp in too. You choose some friends or like minded people and have a fun time.

There is no reason that a digital version should be any different, open to a group of like-minded people. The idea that we are all now isolated digital beethovens too individually amazing to ever be sullied by the trashy ideas of others is a bit idealistic to say the least.

We are much more like the rowdy troubadours, full of a few too many beers and making a bit of a racket. Sure it might all be a bit more glossy - but a lot of it is just glossy racket.

it's fun to make a racket sometimes - but don't believe that a collection of VSTi makes it anything more than that

he he...well the danny boy comment was tongue in cheek, and I'm certainly not being elitist and saying "we are all now isolated digital beethovens too individually amazing to ever be sullied by the trashy ideas of others" but you have to admit that the world would be far duller if many of the greatest modern musicians hadn't worked their arses off to perfect their albums the way THEY liked it.

my exact point is that there is a time and place for both and they are not mutually exclusive - which is what you're saying too..I think...

but I am also saying that I cant really see electronic music being able to have this same immediacy or social interaction quality on a 'mainstream' scale - but maybe I'm wrong

EgAD · Post by **EgAD** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:13 am

the type of interaction i'm into

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=qWXq8icPVn8

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:40 am

i think they are exclusive. that is, i think the hero-worship of rockstar by audience has crowded out the fact that many, many people can play, even if they can't really create, and playing is just about as much fun, and most folk shouldn't bother being creative beyond recreating standards, songs they like, etc.

IMHO, our age overvalues creativity, so you've got some idiot kid thinking his input is really valuable or desireable, rather than encouraging that kid to just play first, have fun, maybe you'll be the 1 of 100 who should aspire to more, but likely not, etc.

granted, you need alot of bonehead kids, delusional about their talent level, to get one kurt c., so it's not all bad, maybe it's necessary. some of this depends on where you live, too. i'm always pleased when i'm in part of the south (US) where people of pretty much any age get drunk and get down to whatever's playing, without worrying about how cool they look, or whether the music's particularly good. by contrast, i hate the nyc stand and watch the band with arms crossed, too cool to care.

and i think the move to electronic creation and distribution has helped, because now you've got dabblers of all sorts, everyone can take a shot, create some tunes, bute you don't need real committment, can do it at home, you may recognize your genius is making cool new reaktor ensembles rather than writing songs (and i think that's just about as valuable).

i ramble, sorry.

Kodama · Post by **Kodama** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:49 am

I think it takes a file format, like a new type of mp3 crossed with an .als.

Then you have to have players, some players on computer or devices with touch screens could have control over, say 8 parameters in the song (exactly like macros, controlling many parameters with 1 knob) where a song's 8 macros could be recorded.

Then, export to mp3 and play the song back on players that are passive, like your car or what ev.

Maybe you can remix a song like this and then distribute just the changes so that others have to own the original to play it.

Maybe instead of letting the user cut up your song's structure, you would have 8 different remixes to start with, then they tweak the macros...

The songs would have to be prepared in a program like Live of course.

Think of customized myspace pages with css, etc...

I'm not saying it would always be tasteful!

Actually this already sounds like a lot of lazy Live djs.

I guess sample cds+Live are already very close to eno's idea.

bathyscaaf · Post by **bathyscaaf** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:27 am

I think the quote is from Wired magazine. He was on the cover, just before they completely went over to 100% crap (they were around 75-80% crap at that point). The article was interesting, I have the issue somewhere. I haven't seen what he was describing, though a number of artists have made sound installations that roughly fit in with the idea. He was kind of proposing something like his 1,000,000 Paintings, but for sound, and it would be mostly autonomous -- user input would be more tweaking the formula and letting it rip.

The soundtrack to the upcoming game "Spore" is the closest to what he spoke about so many years ago -- and, of course, he's the one making it.

impete · Post by **impete** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:49 am

Bagatell wrote: What about
* Noatikl,
...The systems are being sold, they´re just not mainstream yet.

Yep! It is a challenge getting such a tool widely adopted, but I think it is worth the effort. The reaction you see when people start to "get" such a tool is tremenously rewarding.

A tool like noatikl is difficult to explain to people used to more traditional ways of making music. "Generative" and "hyperinstrument" aren't words that many people often think about.

The new noatikl 1.5 is due out in one or 2 days, in case you're interested. Let me know if anybody wants the url.

Pete (from intermorphic, makers of noatikl!)

rozling · Post by **rozling** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:54 am

Url me.

impete · Post by **impete** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:55 am

Happy to oblige!

http://www.intermorphic.com

The update hasn't been announced yet, but it is the new 1.5 release of noatikl and will be available in 1 or 2 days from the site. I've just finished the noatikl documentation rework and thought I'd put my feet up for a few hours.

Pete

rozling · Post by **rozling** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:01 pm

Cheers! Look forward to giving it a spin, intrigued about the scripting thing...

impete · Post by **impete** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:09 pm

Well, that is a funny thing. I've been wanting to bring scripting to noatikl for ages, and haven't really found the time until the main product had settled-down.

Speaking as a (generative!) software tool creator, I'm pretty wary of putting-in things that might confuse or overwhelm a user. But I know how powerful this is going to be, so we took a punt! The response has been surprisingly positive, for example: http://intermorphic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=298.

Back to the original mail in this forum thread, the new generative templates from Tim Didymus http://www.intermorphic.com/tools/noati ... lates.html are indeed pieces of art that are unfinished (or really, open-ended); they sound different every time you listen to them, and are actually designed to be incorporated into "meta" compositions you might create with noatikl. I think of these drum packs as containing mini downloads of the thought processes of the person that created them.

"The artist as subroutine", if you like.

Pete

rozling · Post by **rozling** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:04 pm

D'oh - I registered and it's telling me I need to be special before I can enter that part of the forum. Am I not special?

impete · Post by **impete** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:09 pm

Arggh- I'd forgotten that area is for registered noatikl users (doh!), as scripting isn't fully announced to the world for a day or 2.

The quote is in outline (heavy edit applied!)

For the scriptphobic in recovery (ie me) ...
...scripting...
is transformational in what I can achieve with noatikl.
...
I can now define a whole stack of scale rules and switch them on the bar as the piece is playing. As each rule has different numbers of notes or different note weightings this provides a very direct way to create structure and melodic development within a piece without compromising the generative nature of it.
...
I really wasn't sure about this scripting stuff, but I was very wrong. It's a genius move. Absolutely brilliant.

Sorry about that!

Pete

rozling · Post by **rozling** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:14 pm

No worries, thanks for reposting

sounds cool, like jazz improv lead sheets for computers if you know what I mean - like this.

Me gets dizzy and goes to lie down - urgh the possibilities!

impete · Post by **impete** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:48 pm

Me gets dizzy and goes to lie down - urgh the possibilities!

noatikl should certainly keep you busy.

There is an interesting question here of where the boundary exactly is, between the generative music engine (such as noatikl) and the artist. I sometimes think of noatikl as an augmenting musical intelligence. But maybe I'm the one who needs a lie down.

We (my previous company, SSEYO, which I co-founded) published Brian Eno's generative music album called "Generative Music 1 with SSEYO Koan Software") many years ago now. It used our first generative music engine, called Koan (no longer available). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generative_music and http://www.intermorphic.com/tools/noati ... n_eno.html ... he is a man who has always been ahead of his time. Maybe one day he'll discover noatikl!

Pete

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:51 pm

impete wrote: A tool like noatikl is difficult to explain to people used to more traditional ways of making music. "Generative" and "hyperinstrument" aren't words that many people often think about.

Hi Pete,
you may be interested to see how it is possible to make Generative music in Ableton Live

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68184
it's very hacky and a bit limited of course

I'll investigate your product, I notice your scripting is in Lua, which is handy as I've been meaning to investigate that for a while.