Eno Quote

[forge]

....The systems are being sold, they´re just not mainstream yet.

I dont think things like that will ever be 'mainstream' - I think when you are into music it is easy to forget just how unmusical many people are, like wise with software/technology

my son has been getting into this show called 'dont forget the lyrics' and it amazes me sometimes just how unmusical some of the people on there are - they're nervous of course, but not even vaguely in the same key as the song - like they have no concept at all about harmony/pitch etc

I am the same with visual design - I am an auditory person and have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what looks good visually (as my mate the web designer kindly pointed out when I showed him a website I designed) - but I still like to look at pictures sometimes!

I think there may be a reasonable market for this kind of tweaky stuff in the already existing music tech scene we're all involved in, but in terms of the worlds population we're still very much a minority

[LOFA]

I just think it is statistically a minority.

I completely agree.

most of the subscribers do not put up any photos by themselfes. This is just not obvious, since you never come accross them while browsing...

I'll be meditating on this one. At least until I upload some decent work on to mine...

[EgAD]

it was not clear from that quote if Eno meant something in the lines of a finished product or not. As much as I enjoy concepts, that involve user interaction, I still believe the majority of music loves just want to press play . if at all.

Robert

I think you're right, and that sometimes enthusiasts lose sight of this. I have noticed that the world of hip hop does have some working examples of the opposite opinion. I wonder how many MPC's are sold each year. Hip-hop culture has proven through various means of technology that sometimes the audience does want some control.

care to elaborate on this one, i'm sorry i've got fuzzy on the brain or somethin

[SimonPHC]

The systems are being sold, they´re just not mainstream yet.

you mean like violins and pianos and such?
those things you listed are all music tools. Though I consider patching in Max/MSP fun, I don't consider it a game or presentation.

there will always be a difference between performer / audience. performance art and user generated content tried to break that, instead they just created different kinds of performers and different kinds of audiences.

I guess my main point is that a person who doesn't have a creative impulse, will never be a performer. And a person who does will always end up doing something. technology and it's applications like instruments, games and much more just create new ways to do it, in the core the nature of creative impulse is human (perception, brain, etc...)

[Mesmer]

Yes, Simon, Yes:

I just came here to say that from the perspective of the performer, Eno was dead on. And I back that up with just two words: Tenori - On.

I don't think anyone with one of those will seriously ever say, "okay, that piece is finished".

-h

[SimonPHC]

I don't think anyone with one of those will seriously ever say, "okay, that piece is finished".

-h

Just like jazz jam sessions though, nothing new. just musicians.

EDIT: I'm obviously in a "it's all been done" mood, for which I apologise.

[Liam]

Years ago Cakewalk released some CDs with attached software so one could 'mix' the tracks to some extent.

I think the idea dies fairly quickly.

Meanwhile I'm off to buy Elektroplankton as I just realized I can play that on my Wii - I hope.

Like I need another audio app.

[Angstrom]

It's worth remembering two things -

1: that was 1995, a long time ago in computing and music.

2: we are all too close to the problem, as 'musicians' I think we looking at the wrong end of it.



I think that the idea of "providing some parameters to the public" and then looking at maxMSP for some evidence is completely wrong. I think we need to look at elevator muzac , we need to look at SecondLife , we need to look at UnrealTournament , world of warcraft

in those situations users are already participants in a scenario and are manipulating variables as a matter of being there.

Forget about users walking into their front room and adjusting a whole panel of dials to get the best possible music for their mood. Instead think about integration - our entertainments are much more integrated now and will become more so. The interface will vanish, as no-one really loves them (he said, typing on a keyboard in front of a screen and hating it)

Although our delicate artist egos may be offended at the idea of supplying variable muzac to an immersive multi-sensory entertainment platform. Personally I find that idea exciting.

remember that the idea of 'recorded music' was anathema to many old-world musicians. It will be the same here. I look forward to it.

[chrysalis33rpm]

Good points, Angstrom.

I think we also need to look at the phenomenon of the DJ- the development of this character in popular culture from its birth in the mid 20th century. This is relevant because the DJ is the personification of the eager fan- someone who is exactly not a musician, but willing to invest considerable amounts of time and energy in enjoying and participating in music. Many musicians are dismissive of DJs, but i think this comes from a mischaracterisation of the position as a performer. The DJ is not a performer (primarily) but a selector - and the more feeds into the mix, the more interesting it can potentially be.

[pixelbox]

it was not clear from that quote if Eno meant something in the lines of a finished product or not.

What people are going to be selling more of in the future is not pieces of music, but systems by which people can customize listening experiences for themselves.

seems clear enough to me





of course, the notion of selling unfinished products might not be alien to you...

Ouch!

Damn, b0unce, by all means, tell us how you feel and don't hold back. Where is your DAW? Still in development, I take it?

[pulsoc]

If Eno's statement was vague enough to be fulfilled by Elecktroplankton then it is essentially meaningless. I don't have numbers, but I think you would be hard-pressed to make the argument that immersive, user dependent environments like that represent any real kind of market share when compared to, say, the goo-goo dolls. I would hazard to say the vast majority of people 'consume' music in the car (while driving), as an ancillary activity (while exercising or working), and at live events. All three of these areas allow little room for interaction (aside from skipping tracks).

I submit that the vast majority of people prefer their music like everything else - packaged in a well-marketed, shiny casing with quality control and product consistency as the target. Not as a knock, but two of the more interesting music groups to really make it big in the past few years are MIA and Justice - both perform their packaged tracks with little to no room for improv or 'mistakes' - and people buy it up.

Henke has talked about the relationship between improv and the "familiar" before, and I tend to agree with him, however disheartening it is. Innovators will continue doing their work in relative obscurity as mass-culture absorbs the changes from producers who render it palatable, e.g. as a product for consumers. The idea that we are moving into a post-packaged musical market has not been evidenced in any convincing way.

My 2c

[chrysalis33rpm]

Yes, its just that the niche market is sizable. Of course its tiny in comparison to the mass market, but a little bit of a lot is...

[LOFA]

... As much as I enjoy concepts, that involve user interaction, I still believe the majority of music loves just want to press play . if at all.

Robert

... Hip-hop culture has proven through various means of technology that sometimes the audience does want some control.

care to elaborate on this one, i'm sorry i've got fuzzy on the brain or somethin

One way of paraphrasing it would be that some of us are interested in what Eno are talking about but it what is harder to gauge may be the size of the potential audience vs. innovating enthusiasts.

[dj superflat]

if people will listen to ornette coleman, they'll listen to (e.g.) a reaktor ensemble designed by a musician to autogenerate interesting, non-repetitive stuff. whether that could ever be a sizeable market is another question.

but i don't find it at all farfetched that peope currently viewed as "audience" will want to get more involved in creating the music (whatever that involvment is). throughout most of history, music was a comunal production, there wasn't such a sharp divide between the musician and the audience. i've long thought most people who currently are trying to make music/be a musician are really just trying to participate. that is, they don't seriously think they'll make a go of it and become professional musicians with all sorts of other folk listening to their stuff. instead, they just want to be involved in a way that used to be readily available, e.g., like the local "band" -- really just an assortment of people with some facility -- at the hoedown, playing standards, people sitting in and/or singing as they could or wanted, or even the way everyone in brazil picks up a fork and bangs a glass rhythmically while the band plays, etc. that sort of involvment isn't readily available any more in many developed countries, so people turn to their computers, make loops, beats, etc.

[Angstrom]

like the local "band" -- really just an assortment of people with some facility -- at the hoedown, playing standards, people sitting in and/or singing as they could or wanted, or even the way everyone in brazil picks up a fork and bangs a glass rhythmically while the band plays, etc. that sort of involvment isn't readily available any more in many developed countries, so people turn to their computers, make loops, beats, etc.

I totally agree on that. Collective 'amateur' music making still survives in some cultures and is great when you see / hear it in action. Socially valid and usually enjoyable.

I also think it's a direction that Ableton should head in. As a large part of their userbase is 'amateur' home studio users of exactly this type. It is a relatively unexploited growth area.

the Social web (myspace, facebook) has seen an explosion of users and cash, even when the interface is absolutely terrible. So I imagine a network friendly music participation application would do quite well.
a World of Warcraft for bedroom techno DJs? oh god.

I would create it myself ...
but I seem to lack a competent team of developers to obey my every whim.