Why is fixing midi jitter a feature in 7 and not a fix in 6?

adventurepants_ · Post by **adventurepants_** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:12 am

i wonder what 'play through' could refer to though?

this is the one thing that makes me want to switch hosts. it kills me i cant play in drum loops in real time and have them sound anywhere near tight.

BigBuddha · Post by **BigBuddha** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:31 am

Vertical wrote:7 surely has it's share of new features, but the midi jitter timing improvement seems more like a bug fix to me. It should be included in an update of 6. Am I right?

That's it. It have to be fixed in Live 6 or Ableton should provide a free Live 6.5 update to all Live 6 users.

Live 7 is a big joke to all registered users provided as a non-free upgrade. Many of the so called new "features" have to be bought seperately.

Just look at Apple what they did with Logic8. Fairly priced. Lots of new features like Delay Designer incl. improved Space Designer and Ultrabeat. Mainstage and lots of samples etc. ..

Vertical · Post by **Vertical** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:53 pm

longjohns wrote:You guys should just hold on this..

I'm not so sure that the "jitter" improvements relate to that (goddamned) midi timing thread.

Correct, the midi timing issue is not the same as the jitter issue. I believe that the timing issue is fine with work arounds. Perhaps the new external midi device feature will include some easier work arounds. But for me the actual jitter itseld was horrible and made Live unusable for music...what it was good for , I have no idea...I guess step entry or major quantising..

Nod · Post by **Nod** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:23 pm

Vertical wrote:
longjohns wrote:You guys should just hold on this..

I'm not so sure that the "jitter" improvements relate to that (goddamned) midi timing thread.
Correct, the midi timing issue is not the same as the jitter issue. I believe that the timing issue is fine with work arounds.

I'll hold fire for now until it's clarified either in a future beta or by an Abe's spokesperson but if this isn't the issue that is addressed then I'd imagine many users are not going to be best pleased. I, for one, am no longer interested in workarounds for a simple concept - basic MIDI recording has worked perfectly well since the days of Atari ST's and practically every DAW since Pro24 in 1989

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:57 pm

New beta:

Improvements

Dithering for “Render To Disk”. In the dialog you can choose between ‘none’, ‘rectangular’, ‘triangular’, ‘POW-r1’, ‘POW-r2’ and POW-r3 dither mode. The default is ‘triangular’.

Improved the performance when zooming into (especially larger) audio files.

Play-through MIDI timing optimization for better timing when incoming MIDI data is monitored while playing.

Updated Manual

Several text updates and translations

chis · Post by **chis** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:05 pm

nolus wrote:most usb and firewire midi interfaces have dreadful jitter problems in any case.

Would you say that E-Magic AMT8 / Unitor owners should use a serial cable instead of USB, then? Currently using my AMT8 via USB.

[nis] · Post by **[nis]** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:34 pm

Nod wrote:basic MIDI recording has worked perfectly well since the days of Atari ST's and practically every DAW since Pro24 in 1989

I beg to differ. The Atari had an awesome MIDI timing, yes, but only because its OS was running straight off the EPROM and had various other advantages that made it the perfect MIDI machine. All PC/MAC based DAWs had and still have various problems. I kept my Atari at my studio until 2001 or even 2002, because anything else was horrible at that time. Ever tried to record reliable MIDI data into Cubase VST 4/5? And still, you will most likely never reach that same level of accuracy on a PC/MAC based DAW as on the Atari. But hey, we can run audio and VSTs now!

Btw, here's a nice and informative article from RME about the USB bus. Although its slightly outdated, it still happens on a lot machines:
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techin ... bkills.htm

Another fact is that most combined Audio/MIDI interfaces will usually disregard the MIDI timing to favour audio data (only a very few manufacturers are doing a good job here). Add all this to the jitter in Live + issues with the USB/firewire bus in your computer + other issues with your external gear, etc., etc. and you will get a nice mixture of things that throw off your MIDI timing. Luckily I never had such massive timing problems with my current studio setup, so I'm quite happy, but it took a lot of time, money and investigation to find the perfect companions.

Also note that you will never get fully rid of jitter anyway. Live 7 reduces jitter to a minimum, so this may optimize things in the software part as good as possible, but if you are having problems with your interface or whatsoever, it will be no cure for you.

Until then you can only pray for the day someone invents a new technology which better integrates into multitasking operating systems and supersedes that over 20 years-old MIDI stuff.

Note that I am no developer. This is just written from my personal experience I had with MIDI over the past 15 years.

Nod · Post by **Nod** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:51 pm

[nis] wrote:I beg to differ. The Atari had an awesome MIDI timing, yes, but only because its OS was running straight off the EPROM and had various other advantages that made it the perfect MIDI machine.....I kept my Atari at my studio until 2001 or even 2002, because anything else was horrible at that time.

Yeah the timing on those machines was solid as a rock...like you I used to have one running in the studio, alongside a Roland MC-50 hardware seq for live shows, and it, almost, never went tits up timing wise. The MC-50 never fucked up in over 1000 gigs running, in some cases, 32 midi channels w/sysex & hundreds of program changes and, latterly, alongside driving a 24 channel HD recorder with MTC. Stone age technology eh?

...<polite snippage>...Until then you can only pray for the day someone invents a new technology which better integrates into multitasking operating systems and supersedes that over 20 years-old MIDI stuff. Note that I am no developer. This is just written from my personal experience I had with MIDI over the past 15 years.

Cheers for the interesting article and the reply Nis...the problem, as outlined in that gargantuan thread, isn't actually the technology but how Ableton have implemented it. The short version is that the program, prior to hopefully V7, does NOT record what you play - but rather what you heard. Obviously, on larger projects with consequently larger ASIO buffers, this isn't going to work - unless you've experience in tutti organ playing in a cathedral most players cannot be compensating, accurately, to latencies sometimes in excess of 100ms. In addition the workaround presented is to record on TWO tracks - one with monitoring armed and one with it off - because should you wish to monitor what you are playing Live will record the notes with a variable offset on the channel with the armed monitoring.

Anyway fingers crossed this issue has been remedied in Live 7.

[nis] · Post by **[nis]** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:24 pm

Yeah you're absolutely right here, but that does not refer to MIDI jitter or timing fluctuations.

However, I see where people are coming from and it is somehow understandible that the OP complains about this to be a part of a paid upgrade. But, then on the other hand, look at other companies and technologies. Some years ago when there was 'revolutionary' 8bit sampling, would you have complained that your sample doesn't sound as good as the original sound? Nope. You would have bought the new shiny 16bit sampler for 10000$ (or even more).

Technology is moving forward and we can be quite happy about the possibilities we have nowadays. Live grows and gets better and better (hopefully), but someone has to work on it and that work needs to be paid. Speaking as a user/musician and not as an Ableton employee, I totally defend the decision to make any kinds of improvements on the audio and midi engine part of a paid upgrade, because I clearly see these things as improvements and not bugs. Some people may see that differently though and I can accept this.

Have a great weekend,
Nico

Nod · Post by **Nod** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:36 pm

[nis] wrote:Yeah you're absolutely right here, but that does not refer to MIDI jitter or timing fluctuations.

Out of curiosity has the issue, that I've raised above, been addressed Nico? Will Live 7 now record exactly what was played regardless of the status of the monitoring?

However, I see where people are coming from and it is somehow understandible that the OP complains about this to be a part of a paid upgrade. But, then on the other hand, look at other companies and technologies. Some years ago when there was 'revolutionary' 8bit sampling, would you have complained that your sample doesn't sound as good as the original sound? Nope. You would have bought the new shiny 16bit sampler for 10000$ (or even more).

What you mean Live 7 doesn't have an emulated AKAI 12 bit/shoddy AD/DA conversion module for the lofi diehards?

Technology is moving forward and we can be quite happy about the possibilities we have nowadays. Live grows and gets better and better (hopefully), but someone has to work on it and that work needs to be paid. Speaking as a user/musician and not as an Ableton employee, I totally defend the decision to make any kinds of improvements on the audio and midi engine part of a paid upgrade, because I clearly see these things as improvements and not bugs. Some people may see that differently though and I can accept this.

That's cool by me

But, again, before I lay down the bread on this very tempting upgrade, has this long standing issue with MIDI recording, ie: what you played/what you heard, been resolved?

adventurepants_ · Post by **adventurepants_** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:36 am

so what does the midi jitter fix actually refer to?

im a little confused.

if its not the sloppy midi drift with external hardware, or the record where you hear issue, then what is being addressed?

and why would ableton ignore the two major midi problems with Live? (as evidenced by the long and many threads on this in the bugs forum.

attackmode · Post by **attackmode** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:57 am

I also found the MIDI recording issue very annoying.
My workaround was to have an empty muted audio track and route all my MIDI clips via Audio To to this track. The audio of the MIDI track itself I've send to an return track. For some reason this did remove the delay and I was able to use Monitor Auto as expected.

Also I just did a quick test with 7.0b2 and it really seems to be fixed now.

ilia · Post by **ilia** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:45 am

attackmode wrote: Also I just did a quick test with 7.0b2 and it really seems to be fixed now.

specifics, please?
I ran a bunch of tests with phase cancellation of recorded audio vs midi vs render, etc with various monitoring options in l7b2. I definitely see timing differences, not sure what they mean yet.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:01 am

midi is exponentially better for me now

Nod · Post by **Nod** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:33 pm

Cheers for the update guys - sounds good!

keep us all informed of developments as and when you can tear yourselves away from the new toys...

Why is fixing midi jitter a feature in 7 and not a fix in 6?

Re: Why is fixing midi jitter a feature in 7 and not a fix i