Just got an SL again!... thoughts on universal automap...

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
sabotai
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Post by sabotai » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:32 am

R.J.Dubya wrote:Abletoff, thanks for that link to the tempo control workaround. I probably won't even bother, but it was good to read.
mikHATz wrote:I havent dug too deep into it yet but im dissapointed with its implementation with Live. Seems like there are lots of params that you cant access via the SL for sampler, operator. The universal automap is really cool, but i dont have too many VSTs, so it doesnt do too much for me, works great with reason though, you can access all params on different devices( except for NNXT of course )
Again, really frustrating that some params on Lives instruments arent accessible via the SL, but its still a great controller , and the fact that the LCDs update is way helpful. I havent noticed the pot pickup thingie yet. hopefully i wont.
Hey man, if you want to access all of the parameters in operator and sampler etc., set it to 'RemoteSL classic' under control surfaces instead of 'RemoteSL' in Live's preferences. They changed the way ableton's automap worked sometime along the way and simplified Live's internal parameter mapping. I personally like the new layout, as the old one has all the parameters, and it's not as organized, but you might like it better the old way. The old one also has device on/off for live devices like vst's do.
As for the pot-pickup, it's only an issue after switching to ableton automap from any other template, and I'm not even sure if it happens on PC (I'm macbook).
Tone Deft wrote:Automap template looks cool, doesn't work with Impulse, Operator, Simpler or Sampler?? WTF? I guess what goes back to the Automap Server option to pick your automap VSTs, Ableton/Novation should fix this. I'm trying to use just the built in instruments these days. The template 40 automap for those are done well, IMO. Do other DAWs have the same problem with built in effects?
Plug-in Automap (template 38 ) is only for third-party plug-ins, so it won't ever work with any DAWs built-in effects or instruments because they would have to be wrapped by novation into the automap version, which is impossible because they aren't VST's or AU's. So ya, for other DAWs, the internal stuff is controlled by 'mixer automap' (template 39), the same template which controls a DAWs mixer parameters, which is essentially just the old automap template for Logic, cubase etc. Ableton just happens to have it's own special mixer automap, and so, like the others, controls all internal stuff from there.

if anyone finds a way to make all those f'n decimal places go away on the LCD in plug-in automap, I'd love hear about. Or how to change the range display. It's visually confusing to see that a parameter is at 0.039572 on a range from 0 to 1. And for many plg-ins, all the parameters show up that way, which is ugly.
Does this not work? (copied from SL automap manual, pg 9)

Whilst the plug-in is in use, the strip shown in the image above will be used to display the settings of the last control moved on the SL. To
edit the settings for a particular control, move it and then type the desired content into the boxes (as indicated above). Although values will
be shown for sliders and pots, typing in different max/min or step values will have no effect as these types of controls have fixed max/min
values and a continuous action.
Unlike sliders and pots, however, the action of encoders and buttons can be edited. When a button or encoder is first assigned, it will
probably be necessary to change the range, as the maximum and minimum values may appear as 1 and 0. This will make the parameter
move from maximum to minimum value with one button press or one encoder step.
To change the sensitivity of an encoder, type in a maximum value that is much higher than the minimum, as follows:
These settings will scale the plug-in parameter being controlled from 1000 to 0, making the encoder action very sensitive and allowing very
fine adjustments to be made. To decrease the sensitivity, enter a lower maximum value, as follows:
These settings will scale the plug-in parameter being controlled from 100 to 0, making the encoder much less sensitive. Setting a minimum
value that is higher than the maximum value at any stage will reverse the encoder action.
Notice that the step value (the last box at the bottom of the plug-in window) has been 1 in each of the examples above. To make the
plug-in parameter being controlled jump up or down in steps as the encoder is rotated, enter a higher step amount, as follows:
These settings will scale the plug-in parameter being controlled from 100 to 0, where the encoder jumps in steps of 20 across this
scale. Therefore, the encoder will jump up/down from the maximum and minimum values in 5 steps.
Buttons can also be given a stepped action. For example, a button with the settings shown above will jump up from the minimum to
maximum plug-in parameter values with 5 button presses. After the maximum value has been reached (or the highest value the step size
allows), the next button press will return to the minimum value and start the next cycle. To make the button step down from maximum to
minimum values (reverse the action), change the minimum value to 100 and maximum to 0.
Multiple controls on the SL can be assigned to the same plug-in parameter, which can be useful if wanting to have a slider, pot or encoder
for making fine adjustments and a button for coarse stepped edits. However, only one plug-in parameter at a time can be controlled from
one knob/button on the SL.

<<<

I admit I am stuck much earlier in this process, but thats the best help I can be.

R.J.Dubya
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Post by R.J.Dubya » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:47 pm

Thanks sabotal, I've tried that. That changes the increments, but not the display on the SL. So no matter what you change it to on the plug-in range, the display still says 0.000000 to 1.000000. So if you make the maximum 127, with increments of 1, the display will still have a maximum of 1.000000, but increment at 1/127 (whatever that is in decimals).

I don't understand why it doesn't display the values in the range you tell it to send. It works fine, but just looks too busy on the screen. Like a range of 1-100 with steps of 1 will go 0.010000, 0.020000, etc. I don't know, not the end of the world, but you always get meaningless numbers if you want something in a certain division like lfo rate or something.
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pandaman
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Post by pandaman » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:37 pm

Hi
I have got my SL controlling Live pretty well with the default template 40.
What I would like to do is move between effects within a Live instrument.
ie if I have a Midi sound with a midi effect and have that sound set to 'Lock to control surface' I can move between the sound and effects using the left and right arrow keys.
How can I move between them using the SL ?

Thanks

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:44 pm

pandaman wrote:Hi
I have got my SL controlling Live pretty well with the default template 40.
What I would like to do is move between effects within a Live instrument.
ie if I have a Midi sound with a midi effect and have that sound set to 'Lock to control surface' I can move between the sound and effects using the left and right arrow keys.
How can I move between them using the SL ?

Thanks
as RJ posted on the first page in the thread
[quote="RJ "SL Guru" Dubbya"]If you haven't found this out, it's the left button beside the drum pads, and then hit one of the top buttons under the display or left up/down buttons to chose a device.[/quote]Check the posts for more details, this is in regard to template 38.

The more I read this stuff the more I get ticked at Novation for not giving us a manual, wtf?
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pandaman
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Post by pandaman » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:51 pm

Thanks for that.
I have looked at that post.
When I am using template 38 and press the button on the left of the drum pads nothing happens.
In fact none of the buttons on the left light up or do anything (and its the same with the ones on the right).

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:58 pm

sounds like you might not have the 'automap universal' template on #38, check that.

My software upgrade went crappy (my fault) and I ended up not getting the new templates. The other night I downloaded the latest files from novationmusic.com (I think I hotlinked to it in this thread), did an install, all went well and the templates showed up.
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pandaman
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Post by pandaman » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:14 pm

Thanks for the reply.
Some progress - I see that template 38 does allow me to use my Audio Unit plugins.
I was trying to get it working with the effects that come with Live.
Also do I have to swap between templates 38 and 40 when changing plugin and instrument settings ?

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:17 pm

pandaman wrote:Thanks for the reply.
Some progress - I see that template 38 does allow me to use my Audio Unit plugins.
I was trying to get it working with the effects that come with Live.
Also do I have to swap between templates 38 and 40 when changing plugin and instrument settings ?
40 is the original automap
38 is the universal automap
If you choose you can only ever use one of them, each is different and not dependent on the other. IOW no, you don't.
Then there's 39 which is the automap mixer which I believe is kind of a cross between 38 and 40.
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R.J.Dubya
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Post by R.J.Dubya » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:36 pm

pandaman wrote:Thanks for the reply.
Some progress - I see that template 38 does allow me to use my Audio Unit plugins.
I was trying to get it working with the effects that come with Live.
Also do I have to swap between templates 38 and 40 when changing plugin and instrument settings ?
You don't have to use template 38 for plug-ins, you can use the eight encoders in template 40 and select a plug-in to control it. The only thing is that you only get those eight, and you can't change the layout. On 38, you get the whole unit controlling the plug-in, and can customize it permanently. Live's internal effects and instruments however, can only be controlled in template 40, because they are not VST's or Audio Units. You can't select instruments/effects in template 40 the same way you can in 38, so you can't select live's devices from the SL (unless you used some third-party midi-querty conversion thing that allowed you to send left-right arrow keys from a cc or something, I dunno).

So you can use template 40 all the time, but for more complex plug-ins, or ones who's layout you want to customize, you'd likely want to use template 38. With the added bonus that you can select plug-ins from the SL. And switch back to 40 for mixer and internal device control. As I said somewhere before, I've assigned buttons to recall certain templates, so it's one button press to get from 40 to 38 and back.

And template 39 is not for Live. It's for other DAWs. It is to other DAWs what template 40 is to Live, for internal mixer/devices, and the old automap method. Live just has it's own special one for some reason, it's own version of 'mixer automap'.
SL Right-hand-man Tone Deft wrote:The more I read this stuff the more I get ticked at Novation for not giving us a manual, wtf?
There is a separate manual for the SL unit and one for Universal Automap here:
http://www.novationmusic.com/downloads. ... =30&type=3

One's called "Remote SL User Guide", one called "Automap Universal Guide". There's also a getting started guide, but that's not the full manual.
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audiovoid
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Post by audiovoid » Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:02 pm

YEa, I personally think that the new Automap Universal kind of blows. I've just been using standard mode and find that (ecspecially reaktor) alot of controls work better than in Universal mode.
And the funny thing too, is that the Universal Wrapped version of Bass station (which came bundled with my SL) is totaly buggy and dosn't even work right. Now THATS goofy.
All in all though, its a fun unit to own. In hindsight I wish I would have bought the SL-25 instead of the Zero because its not really That much bigger and Im missing the keys, joystick, and XY pad. I thought that the Zero would be smaller.
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sabotai
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Post by sabotai » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:19 pm

Can any of you knowledgeable SL users help me out here?
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... t=novation

many thanks in advance!

mrweasel
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Post by mrweasel » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:53 pm

In hindsight I wish I would have bought the SL-25 instead of the Zero because its not really That much bigger and Im missing the keys, joystick, and XY pad.
For €170 extra, its not worth it though. You might just as well get a separate midi keyboard with xtra knobs (and an extra expression pedal input:P :P :P ) for that price

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:40 pm

sabotai wrote:Can any of you knowledgeable SL users help me out here?
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... t=novation

many thanks in advance!
Did you follow RJ's advice? He's the SL guru around here.


mrweasel - true, but not everyone wants ANOTHER keyboard around, I like the SL for an all in one USB powered pretty portable box.
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Jaan
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Post by Jaan » Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:02 pm

audiovoid wrote:YEa, I personally think that the new Automap Universal kind of blows. I've just been using standard mode and find that (ecspecially reaktor) alot of controls work better than in Universal mode.
And the funny thing too, is that the Universal Wrapped version of Bass station (which came bundled with my SL) is totaly buggy and dosn't even work right. Now THATS goofy.
All in all though, its a fun unit to own. In hindsight I wish I would have bought the SL-25 instead of the Zero because its not really That much bigger and Im missing the keys, joystick, and XY pad. I thought that the Zero would be smaller.
By Bass station works fine, no probs at all even automapped.

Some other plugins, if I move a control with the mouse it crashes Live.
What I would love would be hold down a key (shift for example) then drag a knob to a picture of the SL and it maps and displays the paramter on the SL right away.

That would be a start, and I don't think were very far from getting really streamlined.
filthy

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