Just got an SL again!... thoughts on universal automap...

R.J.Dubya · Post by **R.J.Dubya** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:06 am

So I had to let my novation 25 SL go a while back for cash, and was planning on getting an SL 37 later, and yesterday that day came after I sold my roland vg-88. I had one of the first batch of SL's, and the keys were stiff and not much fun to play, but these keys are perfect!

Anyways, on to this new universal automap business. Here's some things I've noticed so far and a couple questions, and I'd love to hear some other opinions (Tone Deft I know yer out there..)

-While it's nice that you can now control tempo from the SL, it looks to me like you can only do it in plug-in automap. What the hell. Is this true? If it could only be in one template (which doesn't make sense) you'd think it would obviously be most needed while you're in ableton automap. sheesh.

-Pick-up mode still doesn't work after you change from any template to the ableton automap template. Great, we've got plug-in automap, but when we go back to ableton automap, faders jump. Woulnd't that be exactly when you'd need them not to? I'd love to know if this is ableton or novation's fault. It is the single biggest fuck up with the unit and has persisted forever.

-In plug-in automap, most of the encoders go from 0 to 1 by default, and force the parameter to jump from min straight to max. I know you can alter this on the automap plug-in range, but it does it for so many of my plug-ins that it seems like it'll be a huge a pain in the ass that shouldn't be there. Then, when you change the range, it still reads 0 to 1 on the LCD, though it increments slower. wtf???

-When the encoders do work in plug-in automap, often it reads between 0.000000 to 1.000000, instead of the parameters appropriate range. Can this be changed to the plug-ins real range, or at least get rid of those decimals or something? I tried changing the display range on the SL, but it didn't work. A couple plug-ins had the encoder display working right, so I feel like there must be a way.

-So since the universal automap creates a new version of each plug-in you want to automap, is there no way to use the plugs in your older songs without having to save every patch, replace it with the automap version and load the patch? You'd think there would be an easy way to replace the plug.

-I guess 'mixer automap' is not useful for ableton, as it doesn't display the proper settings even though the faders seem to work. "Abeton' template 40 is still the one to use for that I guess eh?

-Many of my automap plug-ins show up in the wrong AU folders, it's a bit of a mess. Any way to put these back in the right places, or organize them in to a separate folder?

So what do you guys think in general? Is this new universal automap a bit of a waste? I still love the unit, but what frustrates me is that it seems so close, but so many little things are stopping it from being what it could be.

To me it seems like the perfect way to use it would still be to use the ableton template, combined with manual templates for midi learn. Of course the one huge thing stopping this from being awesome, is the fact that parameters jump when you go back to automap. let us bother novation/ableton repeatedly about this until it's sorted!

Any input/thoughts appreciated,

-rjw-

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon May 28, 2007 2:46 am

RJ I thought you were the SL guru up in here even after selling yours.

I still can't get SL tempo to control Live, I can get Live to follow with the blinky light but not change bpm and synced the other way, the SL follows Live just fine.

Mixer Automap doesn't work. Right side is groovy. Left side, (Impulse VST loaded) I can see the SL changing pad banks (as if I was paging through the menu with the up/down SL buttons) but the LCD doesn't change from the default reading and I can't change the values with the encoders. Shuttle controls work fine.

It seems that all your complaints are more advanced versions of mine.

I use the SL like it did when it first came out, track volumes, keys, shuttle control, scene launching and poking at VST parameters. When I find parameters I really like I assign them to the BCR.

New automap - I don't care.

Re: Automap VST, try moving them, worst case is putting them back or a re-scan.

I use template 40.

By "plug-in automap" do you mean template 40 or something like template 5 that's an automap for a VST programmed into a template?

R.J.Dubya · Post by **R.J.Dubya** » Mon May 28, 2007 3:31 am

Tone Deft wrote:RJ I thought you were the SL guru up in here even after selling yours.

I still can't get SL tempo to control Live, I can get Live to follow with the blinky light but not change bpm and synced the other way, the SL follows Live just fine.

Mixer Automap doesn't work. Right side is groovy. Left side, (Impulse VST loaded) I can see the SL changing pad banks (as if I was paging through the menu with the up/down SL buttons) but the LCD doesn't change from the default reading and I can't change the values with the encoders. Shuttle controls work fine.

It seems that all your complaints are more advanced versions of mine.

I use the SL like it did when it first came out, track volumes, keys, shuttle control, scene launching and poking at VST parameters. When I find parameters I really like I assign them to the BCR.

New automap - I don't care.

Re: Automap VST, try moving them, worst case is putting them back or a re-scan.

I use template 40.

By "plug-in automap" do you mean template 40 or something like template 5 that's an automap for a VST programmed into a template?

"Plug-in automap" is template 38. It's the new fancy automap template for all the novation wrapped versions of plugs. And "mixer automap" is template 39, which is used for most DAWS for the mixer controls. Ableton's however, is still 40, as its a bit unique I guess.

You can control Live's tempo from the SL now, (BPMPorts in global has to be set to Uc), but as far as I can see, it only works while in plug-in automap (template 38 ). This is clearly retarded, it should work in ableton autmap (40).

I've just played with it for the last 4 or 5 hours, and gone through a bunch of the manual, and plug-in automap is pretty useful actually. The coolest thing is that you can now select any instrument or effect (novation-wrapped) from the SL, no matter what track its on or what track is selected. That's awesome. If you haven't found this out, it's the left button beside the drum pads, and then hit one of the top buttons under the display or left up/down buttons to chose a device. (Maybe I am still the SL Guru...

)

My main beef with plug-in automap is that when you set an encoder range, the LCD still goes 0.000000 to 1.000000. Six decimal places over a range of 1 unit. That's just stupid and I don't how to change it.
Also, universal automap is not much good for your old songs unless you want to replace all those plugs with the novation versions.

And unfortunately AU plug ins don't get seen if I put them in folders, so I don't see a way to organize it better.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:56 am

Do you know the name of the sysex file for template 38? I downloaded the automap .zip file, lots there. I uploaded some of the templates from the novation website, nothing comes up as 'plug in automap'. Any tips greatly appreciated, I've messed around a bit and would rather be making bad music.

wtf is Uc anyway? USB Clock? What's USBb?

Cheers and welcome back to SL-land!!

R.J.Dubya · Post by **R.J.Dubya** » Mon May 28, 2007 5:24 am

Tone Deft wrote:Do you know the name of the sysex file for template 38? I downloaded the automap .zip file, lots there. I uploaded some of the templates from the novation website, nothing comes up as 'plug in automap'. Any tips greatly appreciated, I've messed around a bit and would rather be making bad music.

wtf is Uc anyway? USB Clock? What's USBb?

Cheers and welcome back to SL-land!!

I don't know the sysex name of anything, I only downloaded the latest SL OS (3.1 I think), and it had all templates on-board when I installed it. Maybe you should try re-installing the OS. When you switch to template 38, it should flash "plug-in automap" on the right LCD exactly where it flashes "Ableton automap" when you switch to 40.

I have no idea what Uc means, or Ua or Ub or M1 or M2 or 'Uc M1' or 'Ua M2' or any of that shit. The manual says stick BPMPorts to Uc to get tempo control, that's all I know. What the manual fails to mention is that tempo control only seems to work when you're on template 38 as well as having the Automap Server running.

This doesn't bother me that much, but the pick-up thing really sucks. Also the fact that when you midi learn a knob on a manual template, it automatically sends the SL to ableton automap when you disengage midi learn.

abletoff · Post by **abletoff** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:08 am

Ua Ub Uc are the virtual midi ports on the SL USB bus, while the M is the physical one.
Tempo control works with plugin automap setup OR in a way described here. Still unbelievable this is not in Live template.
Btw I noticed that the novation Vst wrapper makes the Waves SSL Gui instantly appear when you select it, as currently in Live you have to open the plug, close and reopen to see the Gui.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:58 am

abletoff wrote:Ua Ub Uc are the virtual midi ports on the SL USB bus, while the M is the physical one.
Tempo control works with plugin automap setup OR in a way described here. Still unbelievable this is not in Live template.
Btw I noticed that the novation Vst wrapper makes the Waves SSL Gui instantly appear when you select it, as currently in Live you have to open the plug, close and reopen to see the Gui.

Good post, thanks. It sheds some light on what's going on, what's the difference between the busses? I've now seen Uc for MIDI clock and Template 28 Universal Automap, is that its only role? Ua has always been what I've used, Ub maybe a chained device?? Dunno, but so far I don't need Ub.

I reinstalled 3.0 (aka automap 1.0, that's dumb rev. naming.) SL tempo control works fine off the bat as you guys said.

I had to tweak the 38-40 templates a bit, Comm port and such, Automap plug in template needs Uc for the comm port, the others are on Ua. At first the track faders were broken, fixed now.

Automap template looks cool, doesn't work with Impulse, Operator, Simpler or Sampler?? WTF? I guess what goes back to the Automap Server option to pick your automap VSTs, Ableton/Novation should fix this. I'm trying to use just the built in instruments these days. The template 40 automap for those are done well, IMO. Do other DAWs have the same problem with built in effects?

If you haven't found this out, it's the left button beside the drum pads, and then hit one of the top buttons under the display or left up/down buttons to chose a device. (Maybe I am still the SL Guru... )

Just tried that, uber cool but doesn't work with Live's instruments? No, I would not have found that, thanks!

Thanks for the tips, best SL post in a looong time. Welcome back RJ.

eyeknow · Post by **eyeknow** » Tue May 29, 2007 5:19 am

this stuff is harder to comprehend than quantum physics.

I have a headache, and my ego is now the size of a nano-bot....however, it's been rejected for cloning since I'm retarded......

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue May 29, 2007 5:20 am

eyeknow wrote:this stuff is harder to comprehend than quantum physics.

I have a headache, and my ego is now the size of a nano-bot....however, it's been rejected for cloning since I'm retarded......

meh, just some time learning gear, you having problems?

eyeknow · Post by **eyeknow** » Tue May 29, 2007 5:24 am

all of them

Which is why the only controller I have is the midi keys on my very complicated keystation 49! I can actually get the little volume slider to work most of the time for things......

the only controller I ever had that worked at all was the icontrol for logicpro (er, garageband but don't really use it.....)

mikHATz · Post by **mikHATz** » Tue May 29, 2007 8:15 am

I havent dug too deep into it yet but im dissapointed with its implementation with Live. Seems like there are lots of params that you cant access via the SL for sampler, operator. The universal automap is really cool, but i dont have too many VSTs, so it doesnt do too much for me, works great with reason though, you can access all params on different devices( except for NNXT of course )
Again, really frustrating that some params on Lives instruments arent accessible via the SL, but its still a great controller , and the fact that the LCDs update is way helpful. I havent noticed the pot pickup thingie yet. hopefully i wont.

R.J.Dubya · Post by **R.J.Dubya** » Tue May 29, 2007 1:26 pm

Abletoff, thanks for that link to the tempo control workaround. I probably won't even bother, but it was good to read.

mikHATz wrote:I havent dug too deep into it yet but im dissapointed with its implementation with Live. Seems like there are lots of params that you cant access via the SL for sampler, operator. The universal automap is really cool, but i dont have too many VSTs, so it doesnt do too much for me, works great with reason though, you can access all params on different devices( except for NNXT of course )
Again, really frustrating that some params on Lives instruments arent accessible via the SL, but its still a great controller , and the fact that the LCDs update is way helpful. I havent noticed the pot pickup thingie yet. hopefully i wont.

Hey man, if you want to access all of the parameters in operator and sampler etc., set it to 'RemoteSL classic' under control surfaces instead of 'RemoteSL' in Live's preferences. They changed the way ableton's automap worked sometime along the way and simplified Live's internal parameter mapping. I personally like the new layout, as the old one has all the parameters, and it's not as organized, but you might like it better the old way. The old one also has device on/off for live devices like vst's do.
As for the pot-pickup, it's only an issue after switching to ableton automap from any other template, and I'm not even sure if it happens on PC (I'm macbook).

Tone Deft wrote:Automap template looks cool, doesn't work with Impulse, Operator, Simpler or Sampler?? WTF? I guess what goes back to the Automap Server option to pick your automap VSTs, Ableton/Novation should fix this. I'm trying to use just the built in instruments these days. The template 40 automap for those are done well, IMO. Do other DAWs have the same problem with built in effects?

Plug-in Automap (template 38 ) is only for third-party plug-ins, so it won't ever work with any DAWs built-in effects or instruments because they would have to be wrapped by novation into the automap version, which is impossible because they aren't VST's or AU's. So ya, for other DAWs, the internal stuff is controlled by 'mixer automap' (template 39), the same template which controls a DAWs mixer parameters, which is essentially just the old automap template for Logic, cubase etc. Ableton just happens to have it's own special mixer automap, and so, like the others, controls all internal stuff from there.

if anyone finds a way to make all those f'n decimal places go away on the LCD in plug-in automap, I'd love hear about. Or how to change the range display. It's visually confusing to see that a parameter is at 0.039572 on a range from 0 to 1. And for many plg-ins, all the parameters show up that way, which is ugly.

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Tue May 29, 2007 2:22 pm

Hey , I was just looking for a place like this...
I would love it if you guys can give us some more insight on this thread...

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

CHEERS.

mikHATz · Post by **mikHATz** » Tue May 29, 2007 5:04 pm

R.J.Dubya wrote:Abletoff, thanks for that link to the tempo control workaround. I probably won't even bother, but it was good to read.

mikHATz wrote:I havent dug too deep into it yet but im dissapointed with its implementation with Live. Seems like there are lots of params that you cant access via the SL for sampler, operator. The universal automap is really cool, but i dont have too many VSTs, so it doesnt do too much for me, works great with reason though, you can access all params on different devices( except for NNXT of course )
Again, really frustrating that some params on Lives instruments arent accessible via the SL, but its still a great controller , and the fact that the LCDs update is way helpful. I havent noticed the pot pickup thingie yet. hopefully i wont.
Hey man, if you want to access all of the parameters in operator and sampler etc., set it to 'RemoteSL classic' under control surfaces instead of 'RemoteSL' in Live's preferences. They changed the way ableton's automap worked sometime along the way and simplified Live's internal parameter mapping. I personally like the new layout, as the old one has all the parameters, and it's not as organized, but you might like it better the old way. The old one also has device on/off for live devices like vst's do.
As for the pot-pickup, it's only an issue after switching to ableton automap from any other template, and I'm not even sure if it happens on PC (I'm macbook).

Thanks for the heads up. Ill check it out.

sabotai · Post by **sabotai** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:12 am

eyeknow wrote:this stuff is harder to comprehend than quantum physics.

I have a headache, and my ego is now the size of a nano-bot....however, it's been rejected for cloning since I'm retarded......

I know what you mean. I've owned my SL for almost a month and I still haven't figured out how to correctly install the OS to get these new automaps (38 and 40) people are mentioning. I guess I will work more on that tonight/tomorrow.