Automap (almost) completely useless

[Landser]

I'm sick of the automap-functionality, or better: i'm sick how it is implemented. The idea is very good, though. It also works perfectly, how it is intended to work.
But the concept is not based on the daily work.

For those who are not familiar what Automap in Live does: it's for hardware-controlling of plugins and if you click a plugin and have set up a supported hardware-controller, then Live sends the first eight parameters in the automation-list of this plugin to the hardware controller, so the controller reflects their values. Then you can turn the knobs and the plugin is edited. By pressing bank-knobs on the HWC, the other parameters are sent to the controller and become editable. That way you could control the plugins.
In theory. In marketing speech.

But it's almost absolutely useless for daily mixing work, when it comes to plugin editing (EQ tweaking!). Because it maps always all parameters in consecutive order, no matter if they are needed or wanted by the user, on the HWC.






How should it work?
What does the user need? Always the same parameters, no matter what synth he uses, on the same knobs on his HW-controller.
No one uses only one virtual synth, he needs the possibility, to decide, where each of the parameters should be mapped to. That's necessary, because no one can keep 100+ parameters per each and every synth in mind and where they are mapped to! Or is it intended to make spreadsheets of every plugin with the list of it's parameter numbers?! Ridiculous.

Tweak EQ-gain in band 1? Aha, knob4. Gain in band 2? Change bank, because it is on the next page! But there it's not on knob4 ofcourse, but on knob 1. And where was the hi shelf?
UNUSEABLE!!!


Whoever planned the concept, has obviously never produced with a HW-controller, or only knows the Mackie-control.
And it must be said: the Mackie-control is fine for mixing, but for plugin editing, it is the same pain in the a..! Because of the same concept: eight parameters stupidly mapped in their native sequential order.






What would be needed for daily work to tweak plugins:
The user must be able (if he wants) to define per plugin the order of the parameters, that are sent to the hardware controller!
Additionally he should be able to decide the number of parameters, that are sent. Many HWCs these days have more than eight encoders and faders and are not that limited like the old Mackie-control.
And btw: the expensive displays on HW-controllers are only necessary, if the mapping of the parameters is stupidly sequential. If the user can define it, it's not needed anymore, because everyone knows, where he has mapped the EQ-parameters, compressor-parameters on his HWC.






An idea how this concept could be implemented:
An additional layer above the plugin-parameters, where from each plugin the original place in the parameter list is simply mapped to a user definable place. The size of one page (bank), is also stored in this automap-layer. Maybe even the size of each bank (how many parameters each bank will transmit).
That allows, that the user can decide per plugin, how many parameters are on one bank (maybe he prefers for EQs, to have only the gain-settings of all EQ-bands on one bank - or another user wants the parameters band-wise available).
Ableton, thanks for listening.

[Meef Chaloin]

isnt that what macros + racks are for?

[Landser]

What? Building racks in every track, for mixing?! Always building a rack for plugin editing?! Are you serious?
Macros and racks are great for live performances and some other things, but are not for mixing.

[Dr. Zoiberg]

Landser, I agree with you.
I've read that Novation is working on a new customizable automapping...

[Landser]

That's interesting, but i'm afraid, it will only be able to map eight parameters, because Live transmits only eight parameters after push of a bank-button. Andnot more.

Even worse: mapped parameters on different automap-banks share the same controller-data. i.e. plugin parameter 1 in bank1, bank2, bank3, ... have the same controller-data and do only differ with their respective values.
So it would be necessary, to have all parameters of a plugin available at the HW-controller, that the Remote automatically sends (all) bank-change messages, records all incoming parameters, stores tham and maps each one - user definable - to a different knob. And this is only the part for display or setting up the controller.


But when it comes to turning knobs it would need to do the following:

Say you have mapped your favourite EQ's gain parameters with that clever HWC. In Live, the gain parameters of this EQ are automapped over several banks.
You mapped it from different banks with a clever HWC on the first 4 encoders on your HWC.
So for example you have:
Knob1: Gain EQ-band1 (i.e. in Live it is on bank1).
Knob2: Gain EQ-band2 (i.e. in Live we assume, it is already on another bank, bank2!).
...

So when you turn Knob2, the HWC would need to select bank2 and then transmit the data.
When you turn Knob1, it would need to select bank1 first.

And when you turn both knobs, it would need to send prior to each value change, the bank-select.
Heavy additional data-load Live has to handle.
And would be Live able to switch that fast among banks for incoming parameters? How is it implemented in Live?
Maybe before a new parameter of another bank can be received, Live automatically recalls the parameters of that bank and sends them? That would make perfectly sense, since automap works that way, that it displays teh values of the parameters on the HWC. If you click the plugin gui, it transmits the parameters first, too.
Changing the bank results in receiving the parameter values of that bank, first.



It it is handled in Live that way, that would mean if you turn the knob mapped to a parameter of another bank, a bank select is sent by the clever HWC, but then Live receives the bank-change, recalls all eight parameters of that bank, sends them and after that, it finally accepts the input of the value!
One value change of one parameter in the HWC -> recall and transmission of eight, then receive of one!
And this always, whenever two knobs, originating from two different banks in Live, are turned.




I'm extremely sceptical, Novation can overcome these restrictions.
The problem is, that Ableton obviously followed the Mackie Control paradigm: only eight parameters are sent and with bank-change you choose to see the next eight.
This can be easily seen, when using a BCR2000. Hell this beast has 32 encoders, and nevertheless, Live sends only eight, although the BCR is selected in the setup.




A solution would at least be a support of Mackies C4. The C4-protocol sends 32 parameters per bank-change. There you have at least some plugin-parameters to select from and remap.
But Live doesen't even support the C4.


I think, there will be no solution, until Ableton will recognize, what is really needed for remote-control: finally leave the MCU paradigm and send and map the plugin parameters, how the user wants it.

[posssu]

Novation announced a new technology called Universal Automap (or something, I don't quite remember) at NAMM and said it allows users to define, how they want to map their parameters. It was here on the forum too, but it's not on their site yet. It said something about being released at the end of this month.. dunno.

And it's a free update!

Maybe it will solve your problems. It was in General-forum, try searching with Novation.

[Dr. Zoiberg]

Here's the news from Novation:

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=4057

EDIT: and check this (it seems there are some compatibility issues)

http://www.bigbluelounge.com/forums/vie ... highlight=

[leisuremuffin]

novation's marketing speak:

1/29/07 10:48:14 AM

Automap Universal renders old school MIDI control obsolete, bringing an end to MIDI control nightmares and ensuring Novation’s intelligent SL series retains its position as the number one MIDI controller. Automap Universal takes on where the original Automap left off, allowing users to instantly control absolutely any automatable plug-in, in nearly any sequencer, automatically without ever having to refer to a manual or worry about complex MIDI data and assigning. Parameters can be ‘learned’ and saved at the touch of a button. What’s more, any ReMOTE SL owner can upgrade their unit to Automap Universal for free (coming February 26th 2007), by simply downloading the installer on the Novation website.

Novation’s original and revolutionary Automap technology took advanced MIDI controlling one giant leap forward. Reviewers the world over heralded the ReMOTE SL as “quite simply the best USB-powered MIDI controller we’ve ever used.” This was because the SL finally allowed for automatic mapping of sequencer and instrument parameters as soon as supported applications booted up. All mixer parameters, transport controls and instruments appeared instantly on the faders, knobs, buttons and pads, with all parameters and track names being displayed clearly on the SLs two massive LCD displays.

In order to work stunningly with all major applications, Automap relied upon the code within each of the independent sequencers. Automap Universal on the other hand, is a completely independent system that works in nearly all applications, and as a result it works exactly the way you want it to. With Automap Universal, any plug-in (VST* or AU), effects, instruments or otherwise, can be opened on nearly any audio platform and be instantly controlled. The ‘Automapped’ plug-in appears as normal, only it now displays an Automap Universal logo, which glows when actively controlled. As soon as any plug-in is selected on the SL, parameters appear on the screens and can laid out logically across all 64 assignable controls and displayed on the screens above.

In addition to instantaneous and comprehensive control of all plug-ins, Automap Universal provides a simple yet powerful ‘Learn’ facility, allowing any active plug-in to be ‘Automapped’ in any way the user chooses; simply move a parameter on the plug-in and then move a control on the SL to auto-assign. Parameters can be easily renamed on the ‘Automapped’ plug-in GUI and the unique customised Automap template then saved for later use. As such the SL series of MIDI controllers has undeniably become the best controller solution for every sequencer platform, from Garageband and Reason, to Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools and beyond.

As well as seamless plug-in control, Automap Universal delivers a number of features requested since the launch of Automap, including enhanced Mixer and session control, as well as far more comprehensive control over instruments and effects.

Finally, MIDI control Nirvana has been reached; every detail of a session can be automatically mapped or learned quickly, with a minimum of fuss. With no more technical headaches to slow things down, creativity can finally flow freely; computer-based music making just got a whole lot easier and more enjoyable.

*VST support on PC only on version 1.0 release



.lm.

[Landser]

That marketing text really sounds interesting. But as always, the problems are in the details. If reality holds, what the marketing-office promises, and if it works in Live, too, i know i will get a Remote Zero SL.

[Dr. Zoiberg]

Automap Universal will require support from Ableton to work: it only works with standard (third party) AU or VST plug ins out of the box.

[longjohns]

As long as you are going to have to go through and customize a map for a particular plugin, I'd rather that the solution was on the Ableton side.

Making macros unlimited in number would seem to solve it - then you could make racks to hold any plug with everything mapped how you want it

would maybe involve a little reworking of the Ableton Instant Mapping too

?

[longjohns]

in other words, exactly as suggested in the original post, assuming that a "user-definable place" = the macro section

[hoffman2k]

novation..... gimme a break.
It's all their fault.

If they didn't release a half-arsed protocol that needs host support every year...
We might actually have a chance of ever seeing something like OSC in Live!