MIDI delay recording

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:01 pm

Now Im seriously wondering if this is why when I do vocal layers they don't line up very well? I thought this was due to the lack of experience the vocalist has in the recording studio. HOw many hours have I wasted lining up layers when I could of just used Cubase!

I just realized this is purely a midi problem, so my above statement doesnt apply, but this is a timing problem and there is another thread with similiar complaints. Called VsT bug?.

HOw did they fix this problem the first time around?

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:26 pm

John Daminato wrote:Now Im seriously wondering if this is why when I do vocal layers they don't line up very well? I thought this was due to the lack of experience the vocalist has in the recording studio. HOw many hours have I wasted lining up layers when I could of just used Cubase!

well audio tracks have to be set to off to be at the right place. don't ask me why

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:49 pm

I think I usually do set the input of audio tracks to off. Otherwise you get the 80's flanger sound and this seems to really annoy vocalist when they are singing.

What Im wondering is: a lot of times Im using a Rvox on the vocal comps to get them hotter so the next vocal take comes in Hotter. If live is not using its delay comp properly, the vocalist is laying out layers out of time. This could explaine why I spend hours editing the actual timing of the layers, which tends to burn me out on the song. I kept blaming the vocalist, saying "you need to practice a bit more"

FCK!!!!!

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:03 pm

Please don't tell me that Live6 has reverted back to the earlier inexplicable behaviour - I was also involved in the very long discussion/explanation of why it was preferable for live to actually record what you play as you play it.
guess i'll have to check this out.

tylenol · Post by **tylenol** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:04 pm

diverdee wrote:Please don't tell me that Live6 has reverted back to the earlier inexplicable behaviour - I was also involved in the very long discussion/explanation of why it was preferable for live to actually record what you play as you play it.
guess i'll have to check this out.

But has it? Like I said above I get the exact same behavior in 5.2.1 and 6.0.1.

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:06 pm

Ok - i've had the opportunity to try this now.
I don't see any difference in the midi files.
When I tried this with the previous version of Live which exhibited erroneous behavior it was plain to see.

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:19 pm

diverdee wrote:Ok - i've had the opportunity to try this now.
I don't see any difference in the midi files.
When I tried this with the previous version of Live which exhibited erroneous behavior it was plain to see.

interesting. you've zoomed in and they're both identical ?

I tried again with all sorts of different settings, with plugins, without, delay compensation on or off, there's always a difference between the 2 tracks.

Just tried the 602b4, same difference between the 2 tracks

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:10 pm

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:28 am

Just so the new readers dont have to go back and reread the old post. What was the fix for this in live 5 or was it a code problem ableton fixed?

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:06 am

John Daminato wrote:Just so the new readers dont have to go back and reread the old post. What was the fix for this in live 5 or was it a code problem ableton fixed?

yes it was a bug and it was fixed

Amaury · Post by **Amaury** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:40 am

Chris J wrote:
John Daminato wrote:Just so the new readers dont have to go back and reread the old post. What was the fix for this in live 5 or was it a code problem ableton fixed?
yes it was a bug and it was fixed

Hi Chris and all,

Here is how it works (no pre-made answer, that one is fresh

):

-If a track is recorded with monitor set to OFF, the incoming data is compensated.

-If a track is recorded with monitor set to AUTO or ON, the incoming data is not compensated.

The amount of 'delay' between the two is dependent on the size of the audio buffer: the greatest the audio buffer, the greatest the difference between the two.

Now, as far as I know, and after consulting my colleagues at Ableton, this has always been the case, and nothing was 'fixed' concerning that issue. Other things had been fixed, but not the lack of compensation when monitoring a signal, as that poses a space continuum problem! There may be ways to avoid, improve etc.... but they were never there yet.

So, Chris, if you are positive something changed, please tell me what exact version of Live 5 you are talking about, and please quote an Ableton message that states something was fixed. I'm ready to believe you but we can't find anything in these lines... In my tests, it is exactly the same in Live 5.2.2 and Live 6. Here is the test, made in both:

-create 2 MIDI tracks
-set monitor to ON on one of them, to OFF on the other one
-record arm both tracks
-start recording a clip at the same time on both tracks
-stop the recording
-drag clips to the arragement to analyze
-unfold the arrangement tracks
-zoom in to the first note
>>the 'delay' is the same in both versions

Please make sure it is not that you just use a greater audio buffer and notice a bigger difference in the recording latency.

Kind regards,
Amaury

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:02 pm

I don't have a message from Ableton, it's just at some point I was bumping, and some fellow user said it was fixed in the lastest 5. something release, and indeed it was. , I'm on 5.2.1 I didn't install the 5.2.2 because I didn't need to. I'll try to find the thread when I have nothing else to do...

my setting is 256 samples and it is fine in L5.

in your explanation you're saying that OFF is compensated (what's the point? you can't hear yourself playing???) and AUTO is not compensated and further down you're saying that they have both the same amount of delay !
they should be different.

My point was and still is, when you're recording midi, L6 doesn't play back what you recorded : that's a bug or lousy programming, you may have wonderful reasons for that but that's a fact.

As a test : if I record the audio out from live on another system while I'm recording MIDI ( to have a reliable recorded trace of what I was playing) and compare to what L6 plays back, the backing music is phasing (proof that it's spot on in sync) but the midi part is not, i.e. L6 doesn't record (or play back) MIDI properly.
It's probably fine for most people who hard quantize or can't really play and hear a difference, but for music with a feel, and if you want to pretend Live is a serious DAW, you'd better look into it more seriously.

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:17 pm

I also remember that the problem Chris is referring to was eventually acknowledged by one of your colleagues Amaury & subsequently fixed.
Once home from work I will see if I can find the threads & messages explaining the problem in greater detail.
I will also endeavour to test it more thoroughly once I have access to Live 6 again - but I didn't notice this behaviour when I checked the other day

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:22 pm

Amaury wrote: So, Chris, if you are positive something changed, please tell me what exact version of Live 5 you are talking about, and please quote an Ableton message that states something was fixed.

Part of the story is here:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30629

And the change was implemented here:

Change log Live Live 5.0.3b4 - 5.0.3b5

-----------------------------------------------------------------
[01] Bug: MIDI recording with "Off" monitoring
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Platform: All

When recording MIDI in a track with monitoring set to "Off" the final MIDI clip would be compensated also by the Audio input latency.

Status: Fixed

John Daminato · Post by **John Daminato** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:19 pm

Chris J wrote:
in your explanation you're saying that OFF is compensated (what's the point? you can't hear yourself playing???) and AUTO is not compensated and further down you're saying that they have both the same amount of delay !
they should be different.

Chris def has a point here. Why would you shutt monitoring off and not be able to hear yourself??!!

Wouldnt a pain in the ass fix be: now knowing that the latency is the exact amount of the buffer, couldnt you just scoot back the performance by that amount? Of course Ableton told me to set my buffer to Audio buffer. So what does that equate to?
At the same time if people didn't complaine this would never get fixed. As far as Live being a full fledged DAW. I don't think that was ever the plan or wont be the case for many versions. If I remember correctly the first version or maybe the first two versions of live didnt even have the ability to record midi. LOL. THat should give you an idea of where they thought the program was heading.