[POLITICAL] - LEBANON

[PLB]

another question... when isreal was created and the palastinians displaced, what was the attitude towards them? were they forced to pack up and move or remain where they were and allowed to become a part of isreal?

i'm trying to figure out if the palastinians aggression was caused by initial isreali injustice or the other way around.

Well, the Palestinians were invited to participate in the negotiations after WWII when the creation of Israel was being considered.

The United Nations General Assembly proposed the partition of Palestine into two states, an Arab state and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem to be under United Nations administration. Most Jews in Palestine accepted the proposal, while most of the Arabs in Palestine rejected it at the urging of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Arabia and Jordan. In fact, the Palestinians refused to participate in negotiations (and thus in my opinion forfeit their right to bitch about Jewish immigration and the creation of Israel, but hey, that's what you get for taking an all-or-nothing approach).

Violence between Arab and Jewish communities erupted almost immediately. Toward the end of the British mandate, the Jews planned to declare a separate state, a development the Arabs were determined to prevent. On May 14, 1948, the last British forces withdrew from Palestine, and the Jews, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the creation of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan.

So, initially the (soon to be) Israelis invited the Palestinians to share the land. The Palestinians rejected them, and violence broke out on both sides - Freedom fighters / terrorists of both ethnic groups fought over land. Exactly who was right depends on who you ask...

Oddly enough though, there were literally more than a million jews in Palestine before the creation of Israel... Draw your own conclusions from this.

The Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Jordanian, and Lebanese militaries immediately attacked in 1948 immediately after the creation of Israel. The Israelis fought back, and captured territory that the UN never intended for them. The Palestinians, who the Israelis had invited to live with them in Israel or create their own state on their own land (depending on which side of the line they lived on), fled the war at the urging of the Arab world. They became the refugees.

Essentially, the Arab world promised the Palestinians that they would destroy Israel, so don't get too comfortable, just sit tight in those refugee camps - Don't worry, you'll move home as soon as this war is won.

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, the Arab world wrote checks that they couldn't back up. The Israelis won in 48. And again they defeated the Arab attackers in 56, 67, and again in 73. Each time Israel was responding to aggression, as the Arab world was super pressured to "DO SOMETHING" by the Palestinians still wasting away in Refugee camps.

So, the Palestinians got screwed, but mostly by their Arab "friends". Shit, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

thanks for clarifying !

[noisetonepause]

"Judgement of God" (Hezbollah)

Hizb means 'party', as in political party. Hizbu Allahi thus means 'God's party' or 'Party of God'.

**

M Breqs -

What rights do the Jews have to that land to begin? You have people who are ethnically European coming to Israel via America because they're Jewish by faith? Why should the Palestinians even care about them, beyond setting up immigration laws and integrating them into their society?

Why should I argue with the bully over who has the right to my lunch money?

Israel isn't a state, in my mind, it's a crime. Robbery, murder, rape, ethnic cleansing, take your pick. A crime.

-Paws

[ConsciousPilot]

HEY GUYS,

don't you think is a bit too simplistic to discuss it this way?

I think we are far away to have enogh historical/political knowledge and perhaps culture to judge this things which happen away from our "vanilla" realities and involve loads of factors, not only 2 or three like some journalist wnat us to believe.
We all know how massmedia are badly manipulated nowadays, I think the only way to discuss in an adult way these matters is a deep knowledge of the social/political/cultural reality on these area, surely not acquired watching news between a coke and a nike commercial.

We better stay away from these topics on these forums imho, as they are good starting points for studip wars between forum users who are poorly informed, too emotional to accetp other points of view and perhaps too superficial to porperly inform themselves on a given topic before starting spitting out judgments on this or that.

if not we do exactly the game of these pigs... building our ideas on false/misleading informations and close oursleves in our ignorance without even noticing it.

People have no idea how much they act on false beliefs...

[sweetjesus]

HEY GUYS,

don't you think is a bit too simplistic to discuss it this way?

I think we are far away to have enogh historical/political knowledge and perhaps culture to judge this things which happen away from our "vanilla" realities and involve loads of factors, not only 2 or three like some journalist wnat us to believe.
We all know how massmedia are badly manipulated nowadays, I think the only way to discuss in an adult way these matters is a deep knowledge of the social/political/cultural reality on these area, surely not acquired watching news between a coke and a nike commercial.

We better stay away from these topics on these forums imho, as they are good starting points for studip wars between forum users who are poorly informed, too emotional to accetp other points of view and perhaps too superficial to porperly inform themselves on a given topic before starting spitting out judgments on this or that.

if not we do exactly the game of these pigs... building our ideas on false/misleading informations and close oursleves in our ignorance without even noticing it.

People have no idea how much they act on false beliefs...

which is why we need to share information and have a wide source of information to choose from.

im as thankful from the person who showed me the nasty links i posted as i am to mbreqs for posting facts (which i will check up on ) which is all information.

sharing of philosophical points of view without ones own judgement thrown in a limitless manner is also sharing of information. sharing this kind of perspective is like say sharing tips on what works and what you like your session view laid out as thus resulting with everyone gaining more knowledge and some bright sparks maybe coming up with solutions to problems encountered on the way.

[adi]

People aren't really "jewish by faith" -- that's a misconception that comes from the way christians veiw reilgion. Jews are jews no matter what they believe -- you can be jewish and christian at the same time. Or jewish and atheist. The point is that it isn't just a religion, it is more an ethnicity.

as far as "jewish claim to israel" goes, it's not really a constructive debate to have because it doesn't address the facts. jews are there and israel exists. that fact needs to be accepted, because it ain't changing. debating what "right" the jews have to it is not even a little bit productive. ...but since you brought it up...

Israel was never controlled by the "Palestinians." There is no "Palestinian people," either. Before Israel controlled the "west bank and gaza" this land was controlled by Jordan and Egypt. Britain obviously controlled the land that is Israel before the UN divided it. Before that, the Ottoman Empire controlled the land, and ran things from Turkey. Before the Ottoman's ran things, it changed hands between Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and (briefly) Sassanian rule. Things are even more confusing than that, but the basic fact is this: The last historical group of people to both live in what we call Israel and to rule it with full autonomy were the Jews (and that ended 2000 years ago and picked up again in 1948 ) . After that (up until 1948 ) , it was ruled from afar. Nowhere in there was there a group called "Palestinians" that ruled this land. The term itself didn't even really exist until the late 1800's, and even then it was applied to Jews, too.

The group that has come to be called "Palestinians" has no "historical" claim to Israel -- what they do have is a CURRENT claim to the west bank, gaza, and probably part of jerusalem. And the VAST MAJORITY of Israelis are more than willing to give them all of this if it means REAL peace. It's as simple as that. As soon as they learn the lesson of the last 50 years (that violence doesn't get you what you want, and you can't get 100% of what is present day Israel) they will be in pretty good shape. Until then, things are going to be rough for them as a group. I want more than anything for them to have their own country and live in peace, so I hope they get with the program sooner rather than later.

...and one bit about "refugees." Obviously there were people that had to leave their homes during the various wars for one reason or another (lets not argue about why, because there are two sides to this and it isn't constructive). These people are obviously not going to be able to return to their homes inside the 1968 line of Israel, but that is the whole point of creating an independent Palestinian state, right? It's a state specifically for Palestinians. It would only seem logical that these people would make their homes in such a state, because it's a bit extreme to say "we want both to create a state of our own, and we also want to live in Israel, too." This is pretty much the definition of "having your cookie and eating it too."

There is a middle ground, and the sooner a peaceful route to is made, the better.

[dmacintyre]

Edit

[robtronik]

Why can't you remain civil?

I can. ...and do.

It's easy. Just try and consider what somebody else thinks, rather than state dogma. Rather than restate arguements based on emotional pictures, try to look at history and debate on that level. Prove my facts wrong, or refute the logic of my arguements.

eg if I make a claim, and you think it's false, there's one of two possible problems with my statement. Either I have the incorrect premeses, or I draw incorrect conclusions from those premeses.

...anyways, break's over, gotta split. I'll rip your premeses and / or conclusions to shreds later today.



L8er

Well hopefully you are not in this just to "win", and in fact that would be my question, what are you in this for?
I know that to some degree I'm in this to find out what people believe, and why.

From my perspective this whole thing sucks. The Israelis are a new comer to the region, and to totally blame the arab world for their hard ships, and military struggle in the region would be silly I think. The whole issue of arab israeli relations is about as convoluted as it gets..... you have people who were in the are at the time (palestinians ) being forcefully moved about by people who have a religious history with the area(Israelis). Of course the arab world are also responsible to a degree for scaring the crap out of the israelis, and starting shit too. I'm well aware that this is a different conflict, but they do all tie together in relation to a generalized problem there. Israel is seen as occupiers, not as indigenous. It makes for a lot of bad blood.

I don't know what Israel could have done differently, or what the arab world could have done differently, but I do know that I don't take any sides here, there are far too many variables.
All I know is that all the people dying here, in a perfect world would come back as ghosts to haunt the politicians who started this bloodbath. I hope for misery for people who rely on war as an answer in every conflict.

comment to the bolded part. The Jews have been in the middle east for a few thousand years. It is only recently in the last 60 years that their nation was officially recognized as having boundries. They are indiginous to the region, like arabs, persians, and the like.

rob.

[stinky]

What rights do the Jews have to that land to begin?

There were always jews in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. During the late 19th century, and early 20th century, the Jews bought the land they claimed through the JNF from Arabs and the Ottomans.

[stinky]

These people are obviously not going to be able to return to their homes inside the 1968 line of Israel

That isn't completely correct, although I agree with everything else you said. There are israeli-arabs, and they chose to stay. Being a refugee was a choice was that was made in that 'all or nothing view'.

[noisetonepause]

People aren't really "jewish by faith" -- that's a misconception that comes from the way christians veiw reilgion. Jews are jews no matter what they believe -- you can be jewish and christian at the same time. Or jewish and atheist. The point is that it isn't just a religion, it is more an ethnicity.

Right. Umm. We'll say, "those that accept the authority of the Torah but not the prophethood of neither Muhammad nor Jesus", then!

I realise that Israel wasn't created for religious reasons as much as it was a place for Herzl et al's ideas of ethnocentric socialism (zionism) to be instituted. But the religious fundamentalists have become an important factor in modern israeli politics.

Israel was never controlled by the "Palestinians." There is no "Palestinian people," either. Before Israel controlled the "west bank and gaza" this land was controlled by Jordan and Egypt. Britain obviously controlled the land that is Israel before the UN divided it. Before that, the Ottoman Empire controlled the land, and ran things from Turkey. Before the Ottoman's ran things, it changed hands between Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and (briefly) Sassanian rule. Things are even more confusing than that, but the basic fact is this: The last historical group of people to both live in what we call Israel and to rule it with full autonomy were the Jews (and that ended 2000 years ago and picked up again in 1948 ) . After that (up until 1948 ) , it was ruled from afar. Nowhere in there was there a group called "Palestinians" that ruled this land. The term itself didn't even really exist until the late 1800's, and even then it was applied to Jews, too.

I'm quite sure that palestine is the same word as philistine (in Arabic it's philastiniy), one of the tribes also mentioned in the Bible. It's all a bit of a mess in the middle east, ethnically. Lebanon is one of the many problem-causing artificial constructs left over by the clusterfuck that was decolonization of the region...

Ah. I'd promised myself I wouldn't get into this debate.

[stinky]

We'll say, "those that accept the authority of the Torah but not the prophethood of neither Muhammad nor Jesus", then!

I call bullshit, because both muslims and christians believe in the 'Torah' (the bible) as a holy book.

[stinky]

I'm quite sure that palestine is the same word as philistine (in Arabic it's philastiniy)

again, you're talking out of your ass because the philistines didn't exist after they were conquered in 12th century BC, and they weren't even arabs... The term was used to connote palestinians as philistines only by the british, not the arabs, originally (late 1800's)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

[noisetonepause]

We'll say, "those that accept the authority of the Torah but not the prophethood of neither Muhammad nor Jesus", then!

I call bullshit, because both muslims and christians believe in the 'Torah' (the bible) as a holy book.

Before you start calling 'bullshit', read what I said again. Those that believe in the Torah BUT NOT the Prophethood of Muhammad nor Jesus.

I'm quite sure that palestine is the same word as philistine (in Arabic it's philastiniy)

again, you're talking out of your ass because the philistines didn't exist after they were conquered in 12th century BC, and they weren't even arabs... The term was used to connote palestinians as philistines only by the british, not the arabs, originally (late 1800's)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

I stand corrected, then. Sorry. Also, before you accuse someone of talking bullshit, try reading it properly. I said it was the same word, that's all.

If you think I was suggesting that a Levantine people conquered in 12th century BC are 'Arab' (what that means is a very difficult debate too) you're giving me less credit than I deserve.

[stinky]

stinky wrote:
Quote:
We'll say, "those that accept the authority of the Torah but not the prophethood of neither Muhammad nor Jesus", then!


I call bullshit, because both muslims and christians believe in the 'Torah' (the bible) as a holy book.


Before you start calling 'bullshit', read what I said again. Those that believe in the Torah BUT NOT the Prophethood of Muhammad nor Jesus.

Yep, sorry.. i misread that part, and we were both saying the same thing..

If you think I was suggesting that a Levantine people conquered in 12th century BC are 'Arab' (what that means is a very difficult debate too) you're giving me less credit than I deserve.

Yep, that's what it sounding like you were inferring, by this statement..

I'm quite sure that palestine is the same word as philistine (in Arabic it's philastiniy), one of the tribes also mentioned in the Bible.

[M. Bréqs]

What rights do the Jews have to that land to begin?

There were always jews in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. During the late 19th century, and early 20th century, the Jews bought the land they claimed through the JNF from Arabs and the Ottomans.

Yeah, I can comment on this too. A lot of the lands that were ceded to the proto-state of Israel in '48 were demographically Jewish. It's not like they packed up muslims into trucks and moved them out of their houses to make room for Jews over a weekend.

There were three main populations of Jews in the region when Israel was formed.

1. The Jews who had lived in the region and had lands from their ancestors, dating back 5,000 years (a significantly large minority). They owned their properties and businesses handed down from countless generations and lived side by side with muslims under various governments (Ottoman, then British rule towards the last few hundred years).

2. The large population of Jews who had moved in since the 1800's (the majority). They came primarily from Europe, but also from other parts of the middle east, including the Arabian peninsula, North Africa, and Persia. They bought land from Palestinians legally.

3. The Jews who arrived just prior to '45 and just after. They were another significant minority (they're now the majority these days). This group was composed of primarily European Jews fleeing the holocaust, but a lot of Americans afterwards.

So, I hope this answers your question "what right do Jews have to be there"... Really, the exact same rights the Palestinians do.