Live 6 controller Question > Recording CC in Session?

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 pm

yes machinate, you make a good point. This feature is something to be capitalised on.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:12 pm

Machinate wrote:
tripboxer wrote:yes, we´re asking for some kind of bug fix here, not a new feature...

unbelievable, version 6 and this still doesn´t work...
[...]

that's kind of unfair though, isn't it? Live midi automation looping isn't something you can do out of the box in DAWs in general.

If / when it makes it into Live it will be the best unique selling point I've ever seen, and it will really win a lot of people over to live looping - which in turn would be one of the biggest things to happen to electronic music performance... imnsho. Calling that a bug fix is slightly out of line, really.

I'm not sure what you mean, I just opened Cubase and recorded a pedal control as I played a rhodes part. You mean that Cubase doesn't do it in its session view? That's a bit of a get-out isn't it?
Call upon the session view mojo to ward of the evil of implementing something which is AVAILABLE TO VSTi IN SESSION

If it really will be that amazing, I would start publicising it now - like this ?

" Live6 can record controllers in session view, but only for 3rd party instruments and effects and not if you use Lives midi learn - you must use the VSTi midi learn, then it will all work fine."

you might want to work on the phrasing though

illsub1 · Post by **illsub1** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:12 pm

Yes, please make this a possibility!!!!!!! It can't be too hard to code can it? I am excited about the new features but am kind of ticked that you can't do this also Angstrom it looks like your looper is still much needed. It is Ableton "LIVE" right?

deva · Post by **deva** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:29 pm

Machinate wrote:
tripboxer wrote:yes, we´re asking for some kind of bug fix here, not a new feature...

unbelievable, version 6 and this still doesn´t work...
[...]

that's kind of unfair though, isn't it? Live midi automation looping isn't something you can do out of the box in DAWs in general.

If / when it makes it into Live it will be the best unique selling point I've ever seen, and it will really win a lot of people over to live looping - which in turn would be one of the biggest things to happen to electronic music performance... imnsho. Calling that a bug fix is slightly out of line, really.

yeah, it is not a bugfix... just such a logial extension of the Live paradigm that anyone who plays midi live will want it first thing. Thankfully, it is already there for vst... just not there for ableton instruments.

Just I cannot help the question popping in my mind of why it can work for a vst instrument but not for live's own stuff.

glu · Post by **glu** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:20 pm

good question.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:43 pm

Angstrom wrote:Call upon the session view mojo to ward of the evil of implementing something which is AVAILABLE TO VSTi IN SESSION

If it really will be that amazing, I would start publicising it now - like this ?

" Live6 can record controllers in session view, but only for 3rd party instruments and effects and not if you use Lives midi learn - you must use the VSTi midi learn, then it will all work fine."

you might want to work on the phrasing though

I would even be willing to sacrifice the luverly Clip envelope system for a big ol' preferences check-box called "All Absolute Mode". I guess doing it in a way that pleases you and me isn't the hard part, it's doing it in an elegant fashion that pleases as many people as possible.

Again, for the record, this was of course discussed heavily (for hours, I think) at the Ableton Camp last year, and the general concensus was that the transformation from the current mode of operation to the new-and-improved Angstrochinate (tm) Recording Mode would take longer than the development time of one upgrade - in this case 5-6.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:56 pm

well, that's something I suppose.

there's a world of difference between "possibly sometime" and "never", the first one indicates they know there is a problem.

The silent stony silence that comes out of Ableton on this issue suggests more of a "ignore and it will go away" attitude rather than "yes, what a silly oversight, of course players want to record what they play, we are right on it". I mean it's hardly a small issue.

You may possibly be able to tell that it bugs the hell out of me every single day I use Live.
Well, at least I know now that they are aware that it is an issue !

do you know that the original driving reason I did the first angstrolooper was because I wanted to play a synth part and have it loop back at me exactly as I played it!

I later learned not to use Lives 'fold-out' midi learn though, so now at least I can automate controllers in synths these days, but it shows there is something seriously amiss when a user has to take it into his own hands and write an addon to get round an issue. Also a bit odd that lives 'fold-out' midi-learn is pretty much useless.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:34 am

Angstrom wrote:The silent stony silence that comes out of Ableton on this issue suggests more of a "ignore and it will go away" attitude rather than "yes, what a silly oversight, of course players want to record what they play, we are right on it"

No! How many of the WE WANT VIDEO OR WE'LL COME KCIK YOU TEETH IN threads have the Ableton staff responded to? None. Not one. Not a word has been said on this issue. To the best of my knowledge it wasn't brought up at camp, but suddenly it's there.

There's no telling...

John Sweet · Post by **John Sweet** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:18 am

It would take an Alpha tester to know for sure right now, but the video implementation seems so basic that it may not have taken that much work. Changing basic laws of the automation architecture while still adding racks and macros might have been much harder. Could be video's just a nice balance between popular request and easy add.

womoma · Post by **womoma** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:23 am

I agree that session cc recording would be absolutly fantastic. Im no programmer but its hard to imagine it being a major deal to impliment.

Keep the pressure on, they do listen to their customers, dont they?

deva · Post by **deva** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:23 am

John Sweet wrote:It would take an Alpha tester to know for sure right now, but the video implementation seems so basic that it may not have taken that much work. Changing basic laws of the automation architecture while still adding racks and macros might have been much harder. Could be video's just a nice balance between popular request and easy add.

I'd guess that is so. Adding a simple quicktime video playback window is relatively easy

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:10 am

womoma wrote:I agree that session cc recording would be absolutly fantastic. Im no programmer but its hard to imagine it being a major deal to impliment.

Keep the pressure on, they do listen to their customers, dont they?

I would imagine it is actually quite hard to implement. Think of the way a relative looping envelope in session can be offset by one in arrange - thats the absolute/relative issue. Ableton designed the heirarchy of control that way - all your old songs sit on that heirarchy!

If/when they change it they must do it in a way that allows old songs to load OK!
The 'quick fixes' they have done in the past have not turned out so well (FOD goes absorelative in 5.0.2b3) Sorry guys - I still think you farked up on that one.

That's my worry. I don't think we'll be seeing it in L6, it's not the sort of thing you throw in at the last minute - it is like the chassis of the envelope system. It kind of underpins everything!

That's what Machinate was talking about at the Camp Ableton and as that was a long time ago I thought they would have it in place by now.

John Sweet · Post by **John Sweet** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:19 am

The fact that it is such a fundamental issue makes me wish they would cop to what the long-term plan is.
It's still a debate--I think some people still want relative--so the fair thing seems to be to let both sides win & find a way to put an "absolute/relative" switch in the preferences.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:20 am

John Sweet wrote:put an "absolute/relative" switch in the preferences.

that's what I would have done

Preferences -> Clip defaults -> controllers in session : Absolute

I think there may be team politics involved, perhaps some dev people have invested their personalities in the current system, that can happen in a dev team. People stake a claim to a certain way and will not budge, of course I can only speak of my own experiences with software development - where the manager was an opinionated incompetent

*cough*

yep, I'm never managing a dev team again!

tripboxer · Post by **tripboxer** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:22 am

Machinate wrote:
tripboxer wrote:yes, we´re asking for some kind of bug fix here, not a new feature...

unbelievable, version 6 and this still doesn´t work...
[...]

that's kind of unfair though, isn't it? Live midi automation looping isn't something you can do out of the box in DAWs in general.

If / when it makes it into Live it will be the best unique selling point I've ever seen, and it will really win a lot of people over to live looping - which in turn would be one of the biggest things to happen to electronic music performance... imnsho. Calling that a bug fix is slightly out of line, really.

don´t get me wrong. i´m a real ableton fan, and i´m using this software from the first day on (literally, version 1, order number 003 or so..).

the whole thing with session view, quantized loop recording and playing with an arrangement is just great. but when you can record a midi clip in session view & you can record pitch-bend messages to it but no other cc-data, this is a bug to me. when i first found out about that i really thought it was a bug (or i was soing something wrong)...