Arrange view sluggish @ high magnification

cbit · Post by **cbit** » Mon May 29, 2006 11:30 am

(edited title to reflect the cause of the problem)

edit: i made a vid showing how this problem looks on my system http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNKN9EwNH5c

The guys at ableton havnt been able to recreate this yet: i wondered if anyone reading this can:

In live5 I just did a little test:

i opened an empty set, and tried zooming in and out, this works fine.

Then i added one audio clip to a single track and the zooming still seemed ok

Then i copied and duplicated a small part of the clip several times (to the same track), now the zooming starts to become unresponsive
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1677/stutter5ru.gif

By duplicating this small part more times the responsiveness gets worse and worse (screen refreshes very sluggishly, copy and pasting takes a long time etc).

can anyone else recreate this?

edit: heres a link to a really simple set that causes the problem on my machine.

http://uc.panicnow.net/~cbong/liveslugtest.zip

(in live 4.1.4 the same test doesnt result in this slowness on my machine).

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Mon May 29, 2006 2:48 pm

Same problem here
I have mentioned this before, as it is one of the biggest bugs with Live 5.
And I Reported it early (Version 5.0) loads of times
But from speaking to ableton about this I got the impression,
Its not going to get fixed ...
(Ableton know its a problem but because they are so shit and V5 has been such a big fuckup, they cannot fix it without more of our money to pay programmers for their time. Thats why they lie to us and say its unreproducable. They are in denial)
We have to live with it and pay for Live 6 update (Live 5 Bugfix).

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:26 pm

yes, your test set is sluggish for me. not unusable, but definitely a noticeable slowdown.

i seem to get a bit better response by consolidating the slice before duplicating it, but still slow.

try this: minimize the track height while you zoom, and then unfold it when you're zoomed in.

it seems like the waveform rendering is what's causing it, because i can zoom as fast as ever as long as the waveform is hidden.

maybe if the problem isn't going to be _solved_ then they could add a little button for "hide all waveforms" so that you could turn them off while you navigate and only display them when you need to for editing.

gomi · Post by **gomi** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:02 pm

longjohns wrote:yes, your test set is sluggish for me. not unusable, but definitely a noticeable slowdown.

i seem to get a bit better response by consolidating the slice before duplicating it, but still slow.

try this: minimize the track height while you zoom, and then unfold it when you're zoomed in.

it seems like the waveform rendering is what's causing it, because i can zoom as fast as ever as long as the waveform is hidden.

maybe if the problem isn't going to be _solved_ then they could add a little button for "hide all waveforms" so that you could turn them off while you navigate and only display them when you need to for editing.

maybe they need to find a better way to cache the waveform display.
perhaps it has to read from the asd file everytime the display changes?
this would explain why it takes longer the more data is on the screen..

just a wild guess

Benshik · Post by **Benshik** » Tue May 30, 2006 1:47 pm

i think a better way to formulate things would be to remove the words "many" and "small" from your post title....

cbit · Post by **cbit** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:00 am

I'd love to hear that this has been fixed in L6.. would mean i could finally move on from 4.1.4 [waits hopefully]

cs759 · Post by **cs759** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:51 pm

I don't think it is anything to do with waveforms as I have this problem with just MIDI clips in arrange view.

I've come to the conclusion that the arrange view is basically only designed as a way of recording your live/programmed clip triggering.
You can then do a bit of adjustement if needed, but any major creative editing in arrange view is too hard going.

I do love the way you can drag a clip to create more loops, that works fine, but duplicating and dragging clips is so sluggish and it doesn't show you where it going to put it until its too late.

cbit · Post by **cbit** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:01 pm

interesting, i couldn't recreate the problem with just midi clips (zooming remains smooth). But as soon as i add a audio clip and expand the track so that the waveform is visble the jerkiness is back when i zoom in.

cbit · Post by **cbit** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:16 pm

i made a vid showing how this looks on my system http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNKN9EwNH5c

cs759 · Post by **cs759** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:34 pm

cbit wrote:interesting, i couldn't recreate the problem with just midi clips (zooming remains smooth). But as soon as i add a audio clip and expand the track so that the waveform is visble the jerkiness is back when i zoom in.

Based on what you said I've just investigated further, as it was only yesterday I was getting nowhere on a large set - 25 tracks and 200 bars.

After playing about I've found that some of the problem is the way I'm doing it. As a Cubase user, I'm used to pressing Control, then selecting clip and dragging.
This only sometimes works in Live, (sometimes it will do it slowly, sometimes not at all) but always works if you select clip first, then press control, then drag.

That said, what I am finding is that when Control dragging a selected clip, Live sometimes does it instantly and sometimes takes a second (literally) to do it.

---
Just seen your vid
So I don't think this actually relates to your problem at all, your problem is purely zooming.
Just tried it with all tracks 25 expanded - waveforms and midi all zoom smoothly. CPU goes from 1% to 2%.

What is your CPU when you zoom? Do you have recent video drivers installed.

cbit · Post by **cbit** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:48 pm

hi cs: i used the zoom action to demonstrate the prob, but it doesnt just affect the zoom movement: i also have unresponsive copy/drag/moving of clips whenever a waveeform is being show.. but perfectly responsive when waveforms are minimised.

I have 75-80% cpu when zooming.

"Do you have recent video drivers installed." thats a good question, i will check.

cs759 · Post by **cs759** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:50 pm

cbit wrote:(edited title to reflect the cause of the problem)

can anyone else recreate this?

edit: heres a link to a really simple set that causes the problem on my machine.

http://uc.panicnow.net/~cbong/liveslugtest.zip

(in live 4.1.4 the same test doesnt result in this slowness on my machine).

Just downloaded and tried your test on your set. Yes I get the same thing.

I deleted the audio, then reloaded from the browser, then they zoom fine

cs759 · Post by **cs759** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:59 pm

I think the problem is those repeated clips. The start and end locators are almost in the same place, creating an almost invalid clip.

Try deleting all clips, then drag the samples in again, then duplicate the clip many times.

How does the zoom work now?

I think when there are loads of tiny clips all around the same place repeated many times, it is a lot for Live to calculate the positions.

I get the same in Cubase when there are a lot of clips covering the screen, it gets more sluggish the more clips there are.

cbit · Post by **cbit** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:05 pm

I just tried dragging a few clips in, leaving spaces between them, but i get the same slow response.

If you drag several of your your own clips onto the arrange and lay them out in the same way as in the video, do you get the same unresponsiveness when zooming?

(thanks for looking into this btw)

cs759 · Post by **cs759** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:15 pm

cbit wrote:I just tried dragging a few clips in, leaving spaces between them, but i get the same slow response.

If you drag several of your your own clips onto the arrange and lay them out in the same way as in the video, do you get the same unresponsiveness when zooming?

(thanks for looking into this btw)

np

It gets sluggish when I make the clip 0:00:272 to 0:00:274 length (or thereabouts) then repeat that clip many times ( clue is it looks black when zoomed out ) but if clip is covering a much larger area of the sample (ie a bars length) then it zooms fine - not so much waveform calculation, as i think someone has said.

Arrange view sluggish @ high magnification

Arrange view sluggish @ high magnification

Re: Arrange view sluggish @ high magnification