dragging parts or copy in arrange still appallingly slow

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:29 pm

this problem is still here unfortunately

I'm working on a medium CPU sized track and it is an unbelievable pain in the rectum trying to work in arrange because it takes so long for things to move or copy and they are not visible either so I have to stop audio for it to be quick enough for me to be actually able to see where I'm dragging it to

my machine is an athlon 2200 with 1GB ram

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:27 pm

just curious, people used to say to never use AMD/Via for audio. has this changed?

forge · Post by **forge** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:08 pm

I never heard that, and never used to have problems with it

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:12 am

maybe it was bull anyway, but i have read it many times

dpel · Post by **dpel** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:21 am

agreed

really disappointing.

Mike Goodwin · Post by **Mike Goodwin** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:17 am

sure is

justin · Post by **justin** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:29 pm

so slo, and gets worst as trax get more complex (more edits and automation).

live 5 slipped in a k hole and has yet to come out...

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:05 pm

i just solved some major problems on my computer by taking my usb mouse and plugging it into the ps/2 port. i'd recommend checking it out!

before, moving my mouse would result in big cpu spikes, now it does not have any effect on the cpu meter.

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:19 am

im convinced at this point theres probably no chance of this getting any better before version 6

if you want to do production in Live using any sizable layers of tracks and then arrange them on the grid into a song:

aim to double if not triple the *reasonable* requirements you think you would need

ie. if you are running a 2ghz processor try and upgrade to a 3+ ghz chip, if you have 1gb of RAM you really need to up it to 2 or even 4 or more gigs

the only people i know that can arrange sizable projects in Live are running machines with the absolute fastest chips and tons of ram.

.;

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:29 am

also:

in order to do your edits and changes in arrange view as smoothly as possible

1 - Bounce all VSTs to audio clips as soon as humanly possible. Get your sound with all compression and effects etc as close as you can, record it to clips then:

2 - Either

a. Shut off the power to the VST and all effects in the channel and/or

b. Physically DELETE the VST and FX from the channel - espeically if the VSTs run any data in RAM.

Deleting is the better solution but unfortunately its more work to make sure all presets are saved and you can get your sound back later if you need to

and

3 - DO NOT use Duplicate, Drag/Copy, or Move at all if possible!!!

ALWAYS try and remember to Copy (CTRL-C) then Paste (CTRL-V). Its very easy to forget this but try and get into the habit

If you try this you will see that your arrangement moves generally go faster, i dont know why but they do

In combination these things severely limit the flexibility and usefullness of arrange view ... but ... in my experience you either take the extra time (hours) to make these things a part of your workflow or you just dont work at all.

.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:47 am

what are the specs of your computer and what peripherals/ controllers do you use?

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:34 am

longjohns wrote:what are the specs of your computer and what peripherals/ controllers do you use?

- WinXP SP-2
- Athlon XP 2600
- 1 gb RAM
- M-Audio 24/96 internal PCI

for purposes of production no real peripherals or controllers. the arrange grid slowness has been there since I first starting using Live (version 2) and has got progressively worse.

it happened on Win XP SP-1, it happens on a clean install with no other applications running, no un-needed services, completely stripped down system with the pertinent specs outlined above.

its been well documented and reported by myself and many others (search) over the past year or so especially .. nothing has ever made any real dent in the problem other than what I outlined above in the other post

I think the thing is what a lot of people dont understand or want to admit is that this slowness in the arrange grid is a by product of the design:

its built in to the way Live handles the clips ... buffering? undo history? keeping track of clip parameters / warps / envelopes? ... and imo (based on long-term fighting with this and comparison with other DAWs):

nothing but a ground up rethinking and rewrite of the way Live handles the clips in arrange will change it. and nothing that anybody has ever written or suggested in these threads on the forum has ever done anything to convince me otherwise.

.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:00 am

vonster, i've had the opportunity to read quite a few of your posts on this subject, so i know where you stand on the issue.

i do find it odd that the fact that there are plenty of people who DON'T have this problem does absolutely nothing to persuade you that it might be hardware-related

anyway, i only put that previous post on here to make a suggestion for people who are having problems with this.

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:34 am

longjohns wrote:i do find it odd that the fact that there are plenty of people who DON'T have this problem does absolutely nothing to persuade you that it might be hardware-related
.

there are definitely people that like to argue the other side of the issue on here, but according to the poll i started on this a while back they are either mainly silent or they are in the minority (i think 75% percent reported the problem, 25% said no)

from what ive seen (which is a lot, following this for a long time ... because i cant work normally because of it so im always on the lookout for tips about how to "fix" it) the people that report not having the problem either

a. dont use Live in a capacity where they run into it: they are either DJs or doing PA for the most part; or are doing music with relatively minimal system requirements - techno with a few parts, all pre-made loops with a few Live effects in the chain.

and/or

b. are way overpowered beyond recommended reasonable system specs ie they are on dual G5s with 4 gigs of RAM or PC equivelant.

nobody with a 'mid to upper mid level' system - and is trying to use Live to produce large projects from the ground up - ever raves about the arrange view performance. there always seems to be a problem.

whereas nobody on the same system (bold to emphasize the point) running Protools or Cubase or Acid ever really has an equivelant complaint about lockups and lag when duplicating, copying, moving and other routine arrangement tasks on those DAWs

they might have other issues, but Live is the only one that completely breaks down in routine arranging.

for instance Ive run all of the above DAWs on my rig at one point or another for whatever reason and Ive never had a problem moving stuff around on the grid.

if it is a hardware problem or combination of factors not a single person in all the time of working on this on the forum and otherwise has ever been able to identify it.

not from ableton, not from the users on the board, not among other people i know that have been trying to fix it. seriously dude, nobody.

these are the reasons why i dont think its possible to fix it without feeding Live tons and tons of CPU power and RAM .. im going to upgrade everything (because i have to) but mainly we are waiting to see what ableton is going to do with version 6.

we are hoping for a re-write of the arrange view so it works right

.

.
.

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:46 am

word. well in the end all i'm saying is that i was getting cpu spikes and gui lockup when moving the cursor around (which seemed similar to some problems that others were having) and having my bcf disconnect all the time. it turned out that simply plugging my mouse into a different socket completely erased the problem.

someone who's having problems might want to fiddle with their connections.

you do not. there it is