Metaclips - explained in pictures!

[friend_kami]

so i had a really long reply to this, then deleted it all. too tired, i ended up with custom controllers in the end so...

ill go like this instead: +1

[breakphreak]

+1
Consolidate ain't a viable option. I do wanna have small WAVes that might be re-used over several meta-clips. Also, having a proper adjustments for cross-fades between those WAVes inside a meta-clips would allow the work to be done in a much more precise way then now!

[Poster]

make this a sticky..

[forge]

this idea is cool

maybe we need a "group clips" feature where you could select them all (and even empty space) then it is all grouped but not consolodated, then you could drag the grouped clips (well, basically what you're saying but called something different - but the reason I'm viewing it like that relates to the following:

I have also been thinking for a while that maybe we could do with play buttons on clips in arrange - and combined with alias clips so the same clips are referenced in session and arrange then you could have this meta clip but still keep it in arrange and have the benefits of triggering on the fly

I get the feeling Angstrom that the way you work you wouldnt be happy editing those meta clips in session anyway - because what you pictured there with warp markers doesnt seem a lot different to just consolodating and warping as it is now

so if you could just right click>group clips and they all light up green (like freeze or record is blue or red) to indicate that they are grouped

that's basically like machinates clip freeze, but instead of actually freezing it's more like just a container that the clips sit in - individual parts could still be moved around in side the group clips without having to unfreeze

if they had a play button in the left corner you wouldnt need to go to session, and once you trigger it it behaves exactly the same as if the session clip was fired and in fact it aliases so if you switch to session the other is triggered too

I have been wanting this for a long time (the alias clips at least) because if you are playing an arrangement where you only want the basic structure pre-recorded then you will take over on the fly, then when you switch back to session you have to remember which clip was playing

the current way it works is not at all useful for live use

[Angstrom]

I find that the best way to get a solution to a problem is to suggest a slightly crappy solution. That way it illustrates the problem, but it also indicates that it could potentially be solved somehow.

If you show anyone with some skill a bad solution (like this) they can come up with a better solution pretty quick, that's why this solution of mine is intentionally a bit crappy

I just hope the Abe's get my intention from it and come away with some ideas.

[forge]

I find that the best way to get a solution to a problem is to suggest a slightly crappy solution. That way it illustrates the problem, but it also indicates that it could potentially be solved somehow.

If you show anyone with some skill a bad solution (like this) they can come up with a better solution pretty quick, that's why this solution of mine is intentionally a bit crappy

I just hope the Abe's get my intention from it and come away with some ideas.

but we are all kind of hinting at some things that are really similar and gently edging towards the magic unknown all encompassing solution that will one day come - like when you try and remember a tune and it is on the tip of your tongue

I was just replying here: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 718#634718

about session CCs and I started wondering if basically what you just said here is exactly why Abe and C74 are linking up - C74 might be really good candidates to help them solve this terrible terrible problem that has eluded them for 7 years

like you said, maybe someone elses perspective could help solve it

when we were discussing it at the first 'camp' I could see the pain it caused Stefan - even just in explaining why it is such a big deal, and I was really struggling to understand it - but you could see it was a monumental issue

I cant even begin to express how disappointed I will be if it doesnt make it in in the next version or two - or at very least some kind of half arsed compromise where they give us internal MIDI loopback and some kind of reasonably convenient hack that will let us use actual MIDI CC numbers rather than automating the devices parameters directly

but whatever they do, it is like Live is on the brink of perfection but it has a few enourmous gaping wounds near vital organs that are bleeding profusely

I am really becoming desperately unhappy with the automation system and how close it is to being a realtime production tool yet so far away

[Angstrom]

I don't believe that Cycling have been asked to come in and help Ableton with Live, I think the two companies are working on another project which will benefit both of them.
I find it funny that Max users think Ableton is helping them with their interface and Live users think Cycling is helping Live with it's ... anything! They didn't get together to fix each others applications - they did it because they are launching a joint venture, which will benefit both companies. Nothing else makes sense.

It could be a hardware device, it could be a new modular application, it could be a range of sportswear ... but I'm pretty sure it will be something new rather than fixing each others problems.

[forge]

I don't believe that Cycling have been asked to come in and help Ableton with Live, I think the two companies are working on another project which will benefit both of them.
I find it funny that Max users think Ableton is helping them with their interface and Live users think Cycling is helping Live with it's ... anything! They didn't get together to fix each others applications - they did it because they are launching a joint venture, which will benefit both companies. Nothing else makes sense.

It could be a hardware device, it could be a new modular application, it could be a range of sportswear ... but I'm pretty sure it will be something new rather than fixing each others problems.

unless of course that it was a product which allowed users to somehow fix these problems

I'm not really saying they were asked to come and fix the problem

but given the nature of C74s tools, it could be that they are somehow able to

[friend_kami]

I don't believe that Cycling have been asked to come in and help Ableton with Live, I think the two companies are working on another project which will benefit both of them.
I find it funny that Max users think Ableton is helping them with their interface and Live users think Cycling is helping Live with it's ... anything! They didn't get together to fix each others applications - they did it because they are launching a joint venture, which will benefit both companies. Nothing else makes sense.

It could be a hardware device, it could be a new modular application, it could be a range of sportswear ... but I'm pretty sure it will be something new rather than fixing each others problems.

unless of course that it was a product which allowed users to somehow fix these problems

I'm not really saying they were asked to come and fix the problem

but given the nature of C74s tools, it could be that they are somehow able to

you have to remember though, only cycling 74 did benefit from this so-called partnership. i mean, they got a brand new interface for example.

also, there were an office somewhere benefitting from this partnershiop aswell.

[Poster]

mine is intentionally a bit crappy

naah..

only that last image should not show all clips as a sum of audio parts but as individual clips..

a micro arranger within a clip..

So not only dragging clips from Arrange to Session,
but also just drag any clip from Session inside this clip..

daheamn I want this..

[forge]

you have to remember though, only cycling 74 did benefit from this so-called partnership. i mean, they got a brand new interface for example.

also, there were an office somewhere benefitting from this partnershiop aswell.

well - so far.....

if any of the recent C74 improvements have anything to do with Ableton then it will only be a matter of time before we see the benefit c74 have had on Ableton

I actually have the same view as Angstrom - I think it is a new product, not a change to the existing ones, but I cant help thinking that the nature of it could be something that completely transforms the way we use both

I mean maybe like the way we used to use Plogue Bidule to use VSTs in Live

given one of the big deal requests for Live is an LFO plug-in so that we can modulate anything in real time - because the current clip envelope type of modulation is not immediate enough - so this to me is a logical place to collaborate

we are missing automation in session

what if instead of fixing that, Ableton74 gave us an in-between completely configurable max/MSP esque environment to manage these things however we like?

One view I've formed of Ableton over time is that they would much rather agonise over finding the best possible solution for a problem than try anything at all unsafe and do it half arsed

so you can guarantee they think about all of these new features that are added an insane amount, but maybe too much, but I could see this being the type of decision they would quite like

instead of fixing CCs in session, they may just give us Maxleton so we can stick something in between a controller and the session clips and devices that lets you decide whether to translate the MIDI CCs to device data, or to route it somewhere else

if it was totally integrated in Live so that all the parameters in a Live device would show up as available targets for routing, then not only could we route our controllers through it to our clips , but we could also make an LFO module that we could route back into Live

the biggest challenge would be interface

they are clever dudes at both companies

I truly am foaming at the mouth waiting for this

maybe that will be the point we lose interest in Live 8 because it becomes about the combined product

[Angstrom]

heh heh heh,
I think I may have just proved my point.

yes, that's pretty much exactly what I want - I have discussed it elsewhere. "arrangement should go IN session" , or more accurately - "lots of little arrangements should go in session".

this would mean that you could take a whole chunk of a song and encapsulate it as a song segment. A Metaclip.

but it's a very complex idea and my theory is that if you suggest a much more modest version of your ideas then it's easier to get people to accept them. Then you reeeeeel 'em in.

[forge]

hmmmm...not sure about mico arranger - something feels really wrong about it

I'm more inclined to take a more global view of it and instead imagine that you show session and arrange on 2 monitors and allow full arrangements to be accessed from clips, so you double click a clip and the full arangement appears in arrange view

I can see that being Live 13 on 32 core 2 TB RAM machines in 5-10 years, a full Live set in one clip that you double click

so maybe the small interim steps in between are giving us dual monitor support and linked/a;lias clips so we can start seeing arrange and session more closely integrated

I just cant help thinking the solution will be bigger, or broader than something like a micro arranger

[Angstrom]

hmmmm...not sure about mico arranger - something feels really wrong about it

I'm more inclined to take a more global view of it and instead imagine that you show session and arrange on 2 monitors and allow full arrangements to be accessed from clips, so you double click a clip and the full arangement appears in arrange view

yep, I'll go with that.There is something wrong ...
I could spend more effort thinking up the perfect solution - but it's not like the effort I expend will be of any use. It's such a complex situation that any ideas we come up with can only be incorporated in spirit . We can only suggest wild ideas and guess at what they will make of them.
Live needs more display flexibility anyway, so I imagine they are looking at that in general.

Really what I want is:

1: Deeper and more powerful Session clips which can achieve some of the detailed work I current do in Arrangement

2: The ability to arrange chunks of songs in a temporary manner, to 'try things out'

3: to be able to see everything better

4: to be able to access things quickly


and I want it on my desk by Monday!

[forge]

yep

whereas what I want is the ability to write a song in as few passes as possible

so, you start jamming, record your automation instantly in ways that dont mean you record everything you do, but more selective

every idea I have I want to do right away and have it remembered, but not records the things I dont want

As soon as I find some parameter somewhere that I want to record a tweak for then I should be able to quickly change it

I'm beginning to think maybe we just need the old fashioned Read Write Touch controls

in fact I would really like seperate rcord controls that responded to different launch modes - toggle, gate and trigger so I could either hit record and record everything for that track until I press stop, or in gate mode just hold down the key and automation is recorded when it is held

etc