MIDI BUG causing latency

Post by **Alex** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:31 am

Hi nobbystylus,

i wanna hit play as soon as the loop is recorded

If I understand you right you would like to record through your Mic on Track with Monitoring set to "In" so that you can monitor the signal.
But this signal will not be in sync to the output of Live.

Then you want to record something but you want to record it already compensated even the monitored signal you hear is not compensated so that when playing the recorded clip it is already in sync. Is that right so far?

regards,
Alex

nobbystylus · Post by **nobbystylus** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:55 pm

I didn't explain myself too well sorry..

I've set up a 'live looping' template which works like this:

On each track i have set up some key commands for 'Arm Recording', 'Launch Slot', 'Stop Slot'. I hit 'Arm Recording' on, say track 1, I record myself via a mic, into my echo/indigo i/o, via software monitoring (listening to a click track or bass drums/percussion in headphones for timing and also listening to myself) and as soon as the recording is done launch this new recording via the 'Launch' key command.. It plays the loop back straight away.. great.. BUT the problem is that the launched loop i've just recorded is always slightly late no matter what i do with latency etc..

So its kind of impossible to do what i want to do with Software monitoring turned on.. (i would have to have a mixer which i monitor from 'thru the air' which i don't want to do)..

Post by **Alex** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:03 pm

nobbystylus,

BUT the problem is that the launched loop i've just recorded is always slightly late no matter what i do with latency etc..

Sure because Live only compensate the recording when set the monitoring to 'Off".

So again, what you would like to have is that the recorded file is also compensated even if the track monitor is set to "In" or "Auto", right?
Currently the only workaround for you would be to use two tracks. One for monitoring (monitoring set to "In") only and the other to recording only (monitoring set to "Off").

regards,
Alex

nobbystylus · Post by **nobbystylus** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:05 pm

Yes thats right.. ideally it would be compensated when monitoring is set to 'In' or 'Auto'.. I will experment with the workaround though.. thanks for that..

nobbystylus · Post by **nobbystylus** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:15 pm

yes this workaround works fine, as delay compensation puts everything spot on...
the only problem being that when recording a voice, i am using effects, meaning i have to duplicate every effect on the 'OFF', Record channel, on the Monitoring 'In' or 'Auto' channel just to be able to hear what it will sound like when its recorded..

Post by **Alex** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:19 pm

nobbystylus,

the only problem being that when recording a voice, i am using effects, meaning i have to duplicate every effect on the 'OFF', Record channel, on the Monitoring 'In' or 'Auto' channel just to be able to hear what it will sound like when its recorded..

Yeah, I see the point.

However I will put it on the list and we will think about we can improve this.

regards,
Alex

nobbystylus · Post by **nobbystylus** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:21 pm

Thanks alot Alex...

lukas412 · Post by **lukas412** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:03 am

I thought I would investigate the midi problem. I dont really trust my keyboard skills, so I plugged in my mobius and set up the two tracks. At every setting I tried, with delay comp and without, the track that had monitoring set to auto would have about a 64th note delay, whereas the track set with monitoring off would be dead on. I know this is a known issue, but I just thought I should say how serious I think this problem is. It basicly makes midi a real pain. You either have to deal with two seperate tracks, have it quantized, or move everything by hand, which will kill the feel of the track anyway. So I guess we all just cross our fingers and wait.

nickb808 · Post by **nickb808** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:05 pm

i have to back up lukas412 on this one.

there is a 20+ms latency where none should exist for me. basically if you are using this as a midi sequencer, it will not be tight. the only realtime workaround is arming a track w/ the monitor set to in, routed to an auto track. so you have to point it where you want to go each time.

i truly hope this has a very high priority on the list...i can't think of what would trump it actually, as all midi from the input must be quantized, manually shifted, or the like which is very very annoying. live should be able to work as an mpc with tight midi. all other sequencers i've used don't have problem.

thanks,
-nick

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:55 pm

Got to agree with you here aswell.
The midi thing needs to be sorted out soon, I have just noticed it myself and its no good.
Please look into this urgently ableton.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:57 pm

nickb808 wrote: live should be able to work as an mpc with tight midi. all other sequencers i've used don't have problem.

I just wish I could have got a refund for Live4, and move on to a more pro solution. What a piece of ***, a sequencer that does not even record in time.

.

henry ford · Post by **henry ford** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:30 pm

hmm, well...

set up two midi tracks....one to record with auditioning off and one to audition. Arm them both , put your instrument of choice into the audition track. Set the midi out of the recording track to send to the audition track , so that when you launch a recorded clip it will play.

it kind of makes sense to me , why the midi track delays in the same way as an audio track with auditioning set to on or auto.

if auditioning is off , live does not have to match the written notes with sounds at the same time , thus it does the job perfectly. If , by means of turning auditioning on , live is expected to play sound in sync to the notes being played , it will probably delay the midi notes so that they are in sync with the sound , as opposed to being in sync with your fingers. This i guess causes less confusion then having the sound delayed and the notes in sync with your fingers. I guess it all comes down to the inevitable latency caused when wishing to send midi signals from an external module through a sequencer and into a sound module , and in turn sending audio to your ears. Somethings got to give , and it seems logical there has to be an offset somewhere. Unless of course , you are hearing the sound before the midi notes get written ? Also , as regards watching a clip record as you play , I have often noticed the visual representation of the notes/sound being recorded lag behind whats being played , but as far as I recall it would be recorded properly when you go to play it.. I cant test it out now as im away from my studio......I hope you figure it out one way or the other.

I have not been satisfied with PDC....it dont seem to work for me.
I have a midi track sending to a micro modular (external synth) , and i have the audio outs from the modular being sent to an audio track - auditioning set to off. Now , i want to record the audio that the modular will produce when that midi clip gets sent to it. However , i have tried offsetting both midi and audio track but it seems to be completely ineffectual. When I launch the midiclip/and/recording clip ...i always get the same length of space at the start of the audio clip. So with offset set to zero , auditioning off...is the same as offsetting both tracks. The only time i can get any change is making the space BIGGER! , surely if offsetting one way makes the space larger , offsetting the opposite way should (as advertised) make it smaller (even not at all). I am going to search the threads on this one.....its kind of dissapointing , I hope im missing something obvious. As far as I'm concerned under those circumstances live should get things bang-on. Getting things in sync while auditioning too , would be frikkin fantastic

Chris J · Post by **Chris J** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:36 pm

henry ford wrote:if auditioning is off , live does not have to match the written notes with sounds at the same time , thus it does the job perfectly. If , by means of turning auditioning on , live is expected to play sound in sync to the notes being played , it will probably delay the midi notes so that they are in sync with the sound , as opposed to being in sync with your fingers. This i guess causes less confusion then having the sound delayed and the notes in sync with your fingers. I guess it all comes down to the inevitable latency caused when wishing to send midi signals from an external module through a sequencer and into a sound module , and in turn sending audio to your ears. Somethings got to give , and it seems logical there has to be an offset somewhere. Unless of course , you are hearing the sound before the midi notes get written ? Also , as regards watching a clip record as you play , I have often noticed the visual representation of the notes/sound being recorded lag behind whats being played , but as far as I recall it would be recorded properly when you go to play it.. I cant test it out now as im away from my studio......I hope you figure it out one way or the other.

as it's been said the midi notes should be delayed at the output, NOT WHEN WRITTEN.

>as far as I recall it would be recorded properly
no, it wouldn't.
Do the test

icedsushi · Post by **icedsushi** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:09 pm

Yeah henry ford, do some more testing. Things are really screwed up and things can't stay this way.

Just to be clear. The bug is that midi coming in is delayed by the overall latency amount in prefs while recorded with the AUTO or IN monitor settings. We should only be experiencing the input latency (buffer size). It's a BIG difference and extra latency we shouldn't have to deal with. See here, where the bug is acknowledged (page down halfway):

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

I have confidence that the Abes wil get this cleaned up promply but in the meantime, yeah it's a biggie.

gregoreck · Post by **gregoreck** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:36 pm

YES... this is a big problem and should be corrected. I love the fact that Live's PDC allows me to put all my nice UAD compressors on bass & drums but the fact that I then can't play MIDI on top of them with any reliability makes the whole point moot.

I'm no programmer but it seems that of all the problems Live has tried to solve this shouldn't end up being the hardest of them. But it definitely should be a priority. Argh. If this isn't fixed soon I have a feeling I be going back to Digital Performer for the next batch of songs I work on. Or at least to lay down the midi parts and then import them into Live. What a counter-intuitive pain in the ass...

So Ableton people.. any idea when this is gonna be fixed???

Please...