Live 12 reference manual DISCONTINUED BOOOOOO

[slow.robot]

I mean, I get the desire for a PDF and searchable manual, but it's pretty weird to be looking at switching to another piece of software based solely (or primarily) on that. like, once you learn it, you shouldn't need to refer to the manual so often in the first place.

and physically-printed manuals make almost no sense these days for *any* DAW, with constant updates to squash bugs and introduce new features every few months.

[Machinesworking]

I mean, I get the desire for a PDF and searchable manual, but it's pretty weird to be looking at switching to another piece of software based solely (or primarily) on that. like, once you learn it, you shouldn't need to refer to the manual so often in the first place.

I've used Live for 20 years, there's always something to learn, even if it's near the most WYSIWYG DAW out there. Especially with Live 12.
I also do work on empty houses, often out of town, often without great internet access.

An online manual that is downloadable as a PDF is a possibility, other DAW developers have figured it out. It's just a weird glitch in the matrix, that Ableton want you online for one thing, and it's not even impossible to remedy, seems like an oversight.

[slow.robot]

I agree it seems like an oversight. I’m mostly puzzled by the folks who are considering ditching Live altogether because of it. it’s one thing to be disappointed and inconvenienced by it, but it seems a very strange hill to choose to die on. but hey, different strokes for different folks and all that, so who am I to question it, I guess.

[Machinesworking]

I agree it seems like an oversight. I’m mostly puzzled by the folks who are considering ditching Live altogether because of it. it’s one thing to be disappointed and inconvenienced by it, but it seems a very strange hill to choose to die on. but hey, different strokes for different folks and all that, so who am I to question it, I guess.

Here's what pisses me off about all this. The whole idea of an online manual was/is to have living breathing update able source of correct knowledge on the latest version of Live or whatever program. It's not, it's too late but I'm having to send an email pointing out that the current live 12 online manual has massive, just terrible mistakes in it's section on Lives Shortcuts. I mean you have one job, update the freaking manual....

I'm not trying to be dramatic here, but I'm in the process of helping a company that makes covers and lighted keyboards with Shortcuts on the keys to get you learning and using them all etc. and I can't send them anything, or recommend they start on it, because it's a real mess.

[cotdagoo]

Here's what pisses me off about all this. The whole idea of an online manual was/is to have living breathing update able source of correct knowledge on the latest version of Live or whatever program. It's not, it's too late but I'm having to send an email pointing out that the current live 12 online manual has massive, just terrible mistakes in it's section on Lives Shortcuts. I mean you have one job, update the freaking manual....

+1000 With all the changes to ingrained/muscle memory shortcuts people have been using for 10+ years - CORRECT INFORMATION IS REQUIRED.

On the other hand, with so many changes in this regard, it would be a bigger task to ensure all the pages of the manual that reference older stuff is updated and relevant.. but this is a mess of their own making. Nobody was really asking for a overhaul of known & useful shortcuts, removal of gui elements and forced menu diving for basic tasks that were there in previous versions.

[Lumix]

I agree it seems like an oversight. I’m mostly puzzled by the folks who are considering ditching Live altogether because of it. it’s one thing to be disappointed and inconvenienced by it, but it seems a very strange hill to choose to die on. but hey, different strokes for different folks and all that, so who am I to question it, I guess.

its simply stupid to force poeple to use an online manual and not even provide any other offline solution.

I mean make that good damn online manual downloadable for offline usage. It doesnt need to be a PDF even.

f**king 2020s mentallity that everything has to be online only.

[slow.robot]

it's a weird, silly decision, and frustrating, but stomping one's feet and acting like that's a good reason to switch DAWs is even dumber, imo.

[Machinesworking]

+1000 With all the changes to ingrained/muscle memory shortcuts people have been using for 10+ years - CORRECT INFORMATION IS REQUIRED.

On the other hand, with so many changes in this regard, it would be a bigger task to ensure all the pages of the manual that reference older stuff is updated and relevant.. but this is a mess of their own making. Nobody was really asking for a overhaul of known & useful shortcuts, removal of gui elements and forced menu diving for basic tasks that were there in previous versions.

There is no other hand, the section on Live shortcuts outlining them all, has major mistakes riddled throughout, I haven't even looked for mistakes buried in the other sections. Anyway off to write to tech support.

[Machinesworking]

it's a weird, silly decision, and frustrating, but stomping one's feet and acting like that's a good reason to switch DAWs is even dumber, imo.

Honestly, timely updates to their web pages, shortcuts and manual to help you learn a program are 100% a good reason to switch DAWs, if I had experienced this every update to Live I would have switched to Bitwig a long time ago. The Shortcuts as of now are scattered, I found an "article" on Live 12 on their site that has the new ones, but the old ones in the Live 12 manual have serious mistakes and omissions. The promised in the open beta return of the Show/hide Edit window shortcut is not there yet, so that command currently doesn't work, with no replacement command. One of the first shortcuts in the online manual, which again as of now does not include the new shortcuts. At the bottom of the webpage for the Live 12 shortcuts is a link to download the Live 11 manual.

It's just a total mess, and not at all appropriate for a multi million dollar company like Ableton. If it was one developer I would totally get it, but they have a website team, a manual team and developers, yet somehow Live 12 was released without a finished manual, finished shortcuts and and updated website, and it doesn't seem to be a priority for them to fix it.

[slow.robot]

this sounds like a depressing way to live–having to spend that much time in any manual for any software sounds absolutely awful. learning a system sufficiently should take care of that. if not, probably not the best software to be using.

[Machinesworking]

this sounds like a depressing way to live–having to spend that much time in any manual for any software sounds absolutely awful. learning a system sufficiently should take care of that. if not, probably not the best software to be using.

Currently I'm helping a guy out who is designing keyboard covers and a lighted keyboard for Live with all the main Shortcuts on the keys.
I'm also interested in making a template for Metagrid and Live 12. None of this is possible if the online help is broken, or if the shortcuts change in an update.

You're just being a sycophant at this point, it's OK to love Ableton, it's great software, but your input here is pretty much nil. I mean what are you contributing here? That you think people are dumb for wanting a proper manual or being upset about it?

Here's some examples. In the Live 12 manual [Command Option l] Hide/Show Detail View was depreciated, they mention it coming back but it's not currently working. [Control f11 and Control 12] are not correct, it's just f11 and f12 for toggle full screen and toggle clip/device view.

The Tab key is mentioned in the New Keyboard Shortcuts in Live 12 section on their website as part of various navigation commands, they don't work.

I could go on, it's a mess, and it does affect more than you. If you like mousing around great, I get it, there's a subsection of Live users that are anti complexity. Not all of us are. Anyway I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to make a case outside of my tech support emails for Ableton to fix this.

[[jur]]

I'm glad everyone's been pretty patient and the discussion stayed cool no matter how annoying the situation can be.
Please make sure to keep it respectful to others, thanks.

Btw, I still can't provide anything more than "it's on Ableton's radar", sorry. But I can assure you this topic as been forwarded to the people in charge.

[oblique strategies]

+1000 With all the changes to ingrained/muscle memory shortcuts people have been using for 10+ years - CORRECT INFORMATION IS REQUIRED.

On the other hand, with so many changes in this regard, it would be a bigger task to ensure all the pages of the manual that reference older stuff is updated and relevant.. but this is a mess of their own making. Nobody was really asking for a overhaul of known & useful shortcuts, removal of gui elements and forced menu diving for basic tasks that were there in previous versions.

Well said.

Will welcome it with open arms when it arrives.

[H20nly]

[jonljacobi]

As to changes, you'd think these would be documented as they go with someone updating the users guide as they go. Again, if they would just open the system up so that users could tailor all the commands to their own shortcut needs, changes wouldn't cause so much consternation.