Reflections about the new clip transport and global quantize

[serotoninsteve]

Hello,

As I didn´t know if this is more a bug/problem or a wish, so I decided to post it here, but feel free to move it somewhere else.

Please take some time to read all this if you are not happy with the new clip transport and give your input or opinion.

As the new start/stop pos, uncoupled from the loop seems to work like expected when simply triggering clips in the slots, when starting to scrub around there are a bunch of unexpected happenings (as ex. scrubbing and using the nudge revert button) specially when the loop doesn´t cover the whole clip or when the start and stop pos are outside the loop area.

That´s where I want to start:

1)
The possibility to scrubstart the clip before it´s starpos. shouldn´t be possible, the scrubsymbol should therefore not appear before the startpos.

My idea is, if you need to scrub in this area, to hold a modifier key wich makes appear the scrubsymbol+ the white startposmarker.
When clicking now, the clip is scrubstarted and the real startposmarker moves to it´s new pos and retriggers the clip.
Also should the startpos never be behind the loop area.

2)
The loop function is not clear too, as you can switch loop on, even when the cursor is running and not yet inside the loop area, or already has passed the loop end, for both cases there is nothing that could be looped the moment
you switch loop on.

For the first case the loop should be switchable to on, but show up a waiting for cursor (wich is running into the loop if it´s not stoped before) status, something like blinking or highlighted in an other colour until the cursor has reached the loop start, switching automaticly to green and start looping.

For the second case when the cursor has already passed the loop area, the loop button should be greyed out until you scrub a possible pos. for a further looping, or could reflect the same waiting status as before (perhaps the better solution).

It should never be possible to switch loop on (waiting status only) as long as nothing is running inside the loop area, because this is especially confusing if you record to arrangement and do some editing afterwards where you switch loop on (there was a post with a pic about this).

3)
To scrub after the end marker is confusing too, as it´s not clear why you can play an area of the clip wich is normaly not accessable, like this you have 2 endpoints, the endposmarker and the absolute waveform end.
Better it should not be possible to scrub after the endpos.

I reflected on global quantisation too:

If I create a set with a bunch of clips, global quant set to bar and all the clips set to global quant,
and I create an other set with global quant set to none, all clips quant set to bar.
The 2 sets behave exactly the same way as long you trigger the clips in their slots, when you start to srub or nudge it´s a different story as they are coupled to global quant.

Here is my question:

Do we still need global quant or could this function to be replaced by a nudge only quant function(if the global quant option in clip start would be removed)?

Perhaps I´m missing something here, especially when plaing back an arrangement an firing clips in sessin too?

Well the scrub function should then be coupled to the clips quant and be an extended function of triggering a clip in his slot.

I don´t know if all this can be implemented without rewriting the whole code, but I think this would give a better an more transparent behaviour, and more logical and predictable results.

Thanx for reading this, it was a lot to read but I hope you feel with me.

Greetings

[Machinate]

Do we still need global quant or could this function to be replaced by a nudge only quant function(if the global quant option in clip start would be removed)?

I really dig having the global q parameter up there. I've set my clips up to be 1bar as a default in prefs, but I dig being able to switch a loop to global and really "play" it, retriggering in triplets and all of that, it is a really expressive way of working, and it (no longer, since v5) jeopardizes the sync of "critical" loops, since they are now locked to 1bar.

[serotoninsteve]

When I understand that correct, normally your clips are 1bar q, but you need global q for setting some clips you want to play with to global, and change the global q to different values as tripplets for variations of the same clip.

Without global q you could do the same then, but you would have to setup copies of the same clip with the relevant clip q to play with, not so intuitive then, but working.

Then keeping global q function , and a separate aditional q value for nudging would be better for your workflow then?

Are you nudging or scrubbing a lot?

Greetings

[Machinate]

Without global q you could do the same then, but you would have to setup copies of the same clip with the relevant clip q to play with, not so intuitive then, but working.

No Steve, unfortunately even changing loop properties really quickly in a live situation is almost too slow. Duplicating clips would also mean moving the "scene-head" up and down to trigger, which wouldn't reproduce the effect properly.

Then keeping global q function , and a separate aditional q value for nudging would be better for your workflow then?

hmmm, no, not really - I don't think I'll ever be doing those two things - scrubbing/nudging AND creative retriggering at the same time, and if I do, I think it would be a lot easier to only deal with one q value.

I use the nudge a lot now, slowly getting into it, and I'm using it more every week. The band I'm currently working with requires a fairly minimal .als, using no more than about ten tracks and 20-or-so scenes for an entire set, so I can get really freaky with the individual clips - I refuse to be a "FilterFrequency dj", it's got to be engaging, complex and OTT for me to have at least some kind of fun.

[Martyn]

I really dig having the global q parameter up there. I've set my clips up to be 1bar as a default in prefs, but I dig being able to switch a loop to global and really "play" it, retriggering in triplets and all of that, it is a really expressive way of working, and it (no longer, since v5) jeopardizes the sync of "critical" loops, since they are now locked to 1bar.

Me too, the more I use it the more i like it.

Maybe there could be a legacy mode or something, I feel for anyone who lost some of their playing style as a result of the new transport, but I really don't want Ableton to change it back, I'm getting much more out of it that the old method.

It's a personal preferance i guess.

[Machinate]

yeah, exactly: personal preference... And I think I know what the abletons prefer...
It's odd though - operation in live is very personal, like, some people think the auto-warp works like crap, whereas others think they'll never place another warp marker... the only difference between the two is the user...

[serotoninsteve]

Hello,

In fact I love really everything they have added,
I personnaly don´t feel that they took away something needed for me, as for other users the playheadscrubbing is no more there, but that´s a different story wich has already been discussed in other threads and hopefully this function will be reimplimented in a further update.

If I want I can use L5 exactly the same way as I used L4, but they gave us some features wich I like a lot and when I play around in different scenarios I get really random results, wich I posted not long ago.

My question about global q was just optional,
as I see it´s more important for other people than I thought.
My reflects where how the whole scrub and nudge features could be more reliable with only a few logical limitations or changes.

Well I´m not a coder, but Mr Henke said they know that there are happening strange things and that he personaly doesn´t like how these functions have been implemented.
My idea was to make it more logical while keeping the new functions.

Perhaps Mr Henke jumps in someday and let´s us know his opinion?


Greetings

[serotoninsteve]

Wow, 110 views and only 2 people replied!

Is it perhaps too long my post?

Nobody who shares my opinions?


Greetings

[Tuur]

For the first case the loop should be switchable to on, but show up a waiting for cursor (wich is running into the loop if it´s not stoped before) status, something like blinking or highlighted in an other colour until the cursor has reached the loop start, switching automaticly to green and start looping.

For the second case when the cursor has already passed the loop area, the loop button should be greyed out until you scrub a possible pos. for a further looping, or could reflect the same waiting status as before (perhaps the better solution).

1 - OK.
2 - Nope.

There are quite a few tracks where I've set up a loop at the beginning and use the same loop at the end again (by switching the loop on and retriggering the clip).

Works fine.