ADC....Automatic Delay Compensation

Chris Cowie · Post by **Chris Cowie** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:48 pm

This is not a moan, or a demand for Ableton to add this feature.

But I am beginning to notice it more now with midi and audio together in Live 4.

How important is this for you?

My work around is to nudge tracks back (in arrangement view) simply using my ear.

anyone else have other workarounds

cheers

Moonburnt · Post by **Moonburnt** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:52 pm

Yep I use the same low-tech "Manual Delay Compensation"

method - unfortunately this gets a bit messy when subsequently changing what effects are inserted, or laying down extra clips by ear rather than aligning to bars, and it can be an extremely subtle thing. (Actually this is in adobe audition which i use for arranging, but the ADC issue is the same, in fact it's worse because the lock aka freeze FX function makes the latency different yet again than if the FX aren't pre-rendered!)

Would be curious to hear other workarounds too, but I can't imagine what else one could do?

Chris Cowie · Post by **Chris Cowie** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:08 pm

Thanks for the response Moonburnt...

But....... Hmmmm, seems like this is not an important issue with Live users.

Im hopeful Ableton will implement this at some point. I just hope I dont have to wait the years I did when I used Pro tools.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:25 pm

This has come up before. Ableton replyed it was on their to-do-list. But they could not say us when.

Moody · Post by **Moody** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:13 pm

I would like to see this feature but the current work around using warp markers and recording a little extra before and after the audio helps.

psilosly · Post by **psilosly** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:18 pm

This feature seems like it is fairly important for anyone using any external instruments, synths, mics, etc. and wants to do things in a fast and seemless fashion. Live seems great at the 'fast, seemless' thing in all other areas but this one. I hope ADC is incorporated soon.

Chris Cowie · Post by **Chris Cowie** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:54 pm

Moody wrote:I would like to see this feature but the current work around using warp markers and recording a little extra before and after the audio helps.

Yes this was no problem when Live was an audio only application. Now were using virtual synths along with audio and this changes the ball park quite considerably. Yeh, we can render everything as audio, but why render if we dont need to. Thats more neeedless time wasted. One of Lives biggest strengths (for me anyway) was how fast I could work with it, and write and arrange stuff. Now Im having to shift midi tracks back a few samples now and then (in arrange mode).

Like I say, its not a huge problem. I was merely wondering if others were noticing the looseness of the 'Groove'. I mean if you have a tight happening groove its a bit crap when you add some VST and it knocks it for six....

Chris Cowie · Post by **Chris Cowie** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:55 pm

hoffman2k wrote:This has come up before. Ableton replyed it was on their to-do-list. But they could not say us when.

Yeh, thanks for your insight. I know it has been discussed before. But do a search on ADC with Live 4

........

Chris Cowie · Post by **Chris Cowie** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:09 pm

psilosly wrote:This feature seems like it is fairly important for anyone using any external instruments, synths, mics, etc. and wants to do things in a fast and seemless fashion. Live seems great at the 'fast, seemless' thing in all other areas but this one. I hope ADC is incorporated soon.

Exactly. Couldnt have said it better. I dont mind the external synth delay problem as once its audio its easy to fix. In saying that though SX3 now compensates for external device delays which I think is an outstanding feature if you use external synths and FX.

I love Live for its fast and inspirational effect it has on the composer. Lets hope they do implement it sooner rather than later.

Im going to stop commenting on this now as im beginning to look like a moaning troll....

psilosly · Post by **psilosly** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:28 pm

Just to help others have a better understanding of what ADC is and the problems it can alleviate I'll explain the situation and setup where I ran into this current limitation.

Running Live with a M-Audio FW410 and a Midi Keyboard. Hooked up an external analogue synth.
Connections:
Midi from controller in via its own USB connection to a Live Midi Track.
Midi from Live Midi Track out via FW410 to synth.
Audio from synth in via FW410 to Live Audio Track.

While Directly Monitering the synth via the FW410, I played a line on the controller. I recorded this line as a MIDI loop. With Live sending the Midi to the synth, I played with the synth settings until I got the sound I wanted. Then I enabled the Recording on the Live Audio track receiving the synth audio in (audio in latency in my setup: 27 ms) and recorded the loop. When playing back this audio loop the sound is out of sync with the original, directly monitored sound.

The loss of sync is due to the 27ms latency (aka delay) on the recording. ADC would automatically shift the recorded audio 27ms (or whatever latency you recorded at) to 'the left' so that the recorded audio would match the directly monitered audio. It would also start the recording X ms early when using quantized/punch in recording, so that the first X ms of the recording would not be lost.

Of course, you can do this shift manually, but it is an extra, tedious step in an otherwise fluid workflow. Not to mention the possibility for error when you perform the shift as well as the loss of the first bit of the recording.

Note that the situation would be the same when recording any external, directly monitored audio, be it from a guitar, a mic, or whatever...

here's hopin' ADC will be added soon.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:27 pm

Chris Cowie wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:This has come up before. Ableton replyed it was on their to-do-list. But they could not say us when.
Yeh, thanks for your insight. I know it has been discussed before. But do a search on ADC with Live 4

........

I'm sorry. i must have confused ADC with PDC. I was of the opinion they where the same thing.
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 89&start=0

Gravity · Post by **Gravity** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:15 pm

I would like it to know that better latency handling is on my TOP list. Especially when recording.

In fact, I was seriously shocked that when recording, Ableton Live did not adjust for Latency. This is the most simple thing in the world to do. It knows how much the latency is, obviously (because it sais so in the settings) and therefore, it should by any reason move the recorded wav back by the same amount, or even just cut that many samples off from the start of the WAV!

Recording things on minimum latency makes me nervous.

And even then I have a 5ms latency I'd rather not have.

For me, latency handling of plugins are not as important as most of my effects are external. It's also harder to do, so I have some understanding for this not being implemented yet. But not handling the input latency when recording!? That's a very strange oversight...

I do agree with most people that this is probably what is needed to get a Cubase killer. Recording stuff (especially with external sync) took me several hours to get right, much because of everything being out of sync for strange reasons.

mexique1 · Post by **mexique1** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:01 pm

ok, i'm reassured to see i'm not the only one

i'm using live to sequence my hardware, and yes, this is a problem...
i have to quantize when i record on my hardware, and form some drills at 1/256 or what, this really sounds different

but finally, i think there's NO audio app whit a perfect sync ! even with cubase there's a little delay...

a question : what is the "midi delay" in the preferences (next to the sync midi port) for ? this isn't really a ADC ?

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:07 pm

mexique1 wrote:ok, i'm reassured to see i'm not the only one i'm using live to sequence my hardware, and yes, this is a problem...
i have to quantize when i record on my hardware, and form some drills at 1/256 or what, this really sounds different
but finally, i think there's NO audio app whit a perfect sync ! even with cubase there's a little delay...

a question : what is the "midi delay" in the preferences (next to the sync midi port) for ? this isn't really a ADC ?

Nope

I thought I was going mad until I started searching the forums after I got no replies into a thread I posted on the matter only to realise that Live indeed does not adjust the sample start. It's just crazy...

I really hope they get this sorted out ASAP.

mexique1 · Post by **mexique1** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:58 pm

ok thanx... i read somewhere live 4.1.1 was coming... is this true ?