3 notes and runnin.... protesting court ruling on sampling

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Amberience
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Post by Amberience » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:27 pm

eisnein wrote:so ........why should anyone else get paid for what they are creating??
computers....
coffee.....

doctors?

that theory doesnt hold up. we spend time creating. nothing may be original but that doesnt mean we didnt create "something".
I never said we didn't create anything. I said I felt myself as a conduit. I also said that we don't own the music. I didn't say no-one should get paid for it.

Learn to read before offering counter opinions. :wink:

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:59 pm

shlomo wrote:
rikhyray wrote:It applies to compositions, not samples.
...damn right!
And it should be only like that:
I do remix of your song i pay tribute (financial) to you. I use a sample from your composition i pay you a tribute too (but not financial).
no shlomo, rhykyray was commenting on the question about declaring samples that you use in a live situation (that's what hoffman2k had asked in the first place).
I think this tribute thing is bullshit, you're not paying tribute , you're using somebody else's hard and often expensive work for your own benefit.

mic minimal explained it very clearly and I agree 100% with him
Rules of the game can easily become clear
well, obviously not...

horselesspaul
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Post by horselesspaul » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:39 pm

Make your own stuff. If you like someone else's stuff that much then make some of your own that sounds like it. Easy.
If you can't, then perhaps ask yourself why.
Otherwise pay for the time and effort that went into the work you use. Easy.
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Amberience
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Post by Amberience » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:37 am

I agree. But I think it should only work on a royalties type of deal. A percentage of the amount made. This is so that if the track bombs, then no-one loses. But if it hits the right buttons and makes a load of money, the executives are going to be laughing! :roll:

analogueboy
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Post by analogueboy » Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:57 pm

Not trying to provoke an argument here just expressing a personal opinion. Please dont think I am trying to cause trouble.

I believe all samples are fair game and paying to use them is wrong. If I released a commercial track (very unlikely due to lack of talent) I would not be able to demand that a DJ in a club cannot use it as he is making money (earning his DJ fee) by using my creativity. Once I have sold him the track I have made money and I cannot expect him to pay me again because he becomes richer as a result of the deal.

The same thing applies with sampling. If someone makes more money than me after using my track it is because he/she has more of a talent for making commercial (mainstream) music. I know people believe he/she is profiting from my labour but so did I when I sold him the CD in the first place.

Besides the compulsory listing of which samples were used on the track information would allow fans of the new track to dig out the original from which the sample was taken. As a result someone who bought the NWA track and then went out and bought the sample source track would be rewarding both NWA and Clinton for their creativity.



Like I said I have no wish to inflame opinion at all...just to give my two cents worth (even though I admit it is a fairly radical position.) :D

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:21 pm

your analogy is so remote from the question that it's not worth argumenting.
but it's good that you realize that your lack of talent makes you eligible for not paying royalties to people you sample, because it really seems to be linked.
ie: if you have talent you respect other people's talent.
if you don't have any you think it's fair to use other people's to take the credit

Amberience
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Post by Amberience » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:14 pm

Your analogy is equally flawed. You may as well be saying that all business men are corporate whores with no conscience. :roll:

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:33 pm

I said this before "in the end what does it matter, as long as the dance floor is packed and people are having fun."

You sample beats, cool if you don't cool - it's not YOUR job to enforce what's right and wrong, it comes down to the individual and their conscious -


Seriously, that's what white labels and under ground / independant record labels are for...

In my opinion, no one is better or worse as a producer for how they come to the end result...a concept from the begining to the end that speaks to your audience in the language that you want to speak and understand -


A jam is a jam, period - even if so and so sampled so and so, the fact that I bought the record, played it and got the reaction I like means the world to me...
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analogueboy
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Post by analogueboy » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:20 pm

I dont believe its all that remote an analogy. The point I was trying to make (though perhaps not very eloquently) was that by releasing a piece of music, an artist has put their creative work into the world. Now to me it seems unreasonable that having been rewarded once for their creativity an artist should expect a second payday based on the back of someone elses creativity.

I think the consensus amongst all of us on both sides of the debate is that sampling is a creative skill/art.

My point is that their is no difference in the creative skills utilised in playing with a sample cd of guitar sounds or in manipulating a guitar sound from a Funkadelic record. Therefore the only difference between using a sample from a royalty-free sample cd or from a record is that one guitarist allows others to use his work and the other said no.

Still Im only offering an opinion as a casual music maker.

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:36 pm

Amberience wrote:Your analogy is equally flawed. You may as well be saying that all business men are corporate whores with no conscience. :roll:
you're right, some people don't have talent and recognize other people's and some are talented but don't recognize other people's

but I don't see what's flawed about your statement :wink:

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:45 pm

analogueboy wrote:I dont believe its all that remote an analogy. The point I was trying to make (though perhaps not very eloquently) was that by releasing a piece of music, an artist has put their creative work into the world. Now to me it seems unreasonable that having been rewarded once for their creativity an artist should expect a second payday based on the back of someone elses creativity.
You don't get rewarded once. you might get an advance and then some royalties. if you get airplay you get tiny bits of money, you need to sell loads of records and get loads of airplay to live off your music.
And suddenly you would give all your copyrights away because some guy has sampled you.
Here's another idea, you should pay him to thank him for sampling you :wink:

your analogy with the Dj don' t work because the Dj is paid to play some music once in a live situation (ie not that many people at the same time). If he's a good man, he'll fill the form so the artists he played get a bit of money.
But if you sample a track in your own track ,and you don't declare it, if that track gets played and sells, you'll get royalties but the artist whose work you've used won't get anything...And maybe he didn't get anything in the first place and you're getting much more than him. It's not like that all the time but that's one of the many possibilities

basically once you've struggled a lot to live off your music you'll have a clearer view on how it works

Amberience
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Post by Amberience » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:57 pm

Chris J wrote:
Amberience wrote:Your analogy is equally flawed. You may as well be saying that all business men are corporate whores with no conscience. :roll:
you're right, some people don't have talent and recognize other people's and some are talented but don't recognize other people's

but I don't see what's flawed about your statement :wink:
:lol:

eisnein
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Post by eisnein » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:47 pm

Amberience-

i dont appreciate your insults. I think they are counter productive. We are having a discussion about sample laws. There is no point in telling me to learn to read.

I find your humble opinion to be just that - opinion.

I am glad you are "thankful for my bad experiences as well as my good ones". Thats good to hear. I am too.

If only more people adopted your selfless ways the world would be a better place.

thanks and keep sampling responsibly,

elijah

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:24 pm

That's funny - I can see the bumperstickers now at the WMC '05

"Please sample responsibly, the lawsuit you save may be your own!"
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peeddrroo
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Post by peeddrroo » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:53 pm

another way of looking at it: when i play a piano, i don't give money to the guy who invented it, same with saxophone or any instrument. well, to me samples are the same thing: it's just a sound source.
on the other hand, i know that if i want a piano sound in a track, i'll have to pay either to get a piano, or a sample bank that a guy created, or even hire a pianist. but what if i have bought the CD of the guy i'm sampling? i've already given him money. am i not allowed to do whatever i want with it?
if you create a song with the chords from another commercialised one (without sampling it), you're still stealing the intellectual property, but you've got less chances to get sued.

i know that i don't give any answer, but i don't care. i'll still use samples, cos it's FUUUUUUN.

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