Surround setup for Live

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
deHaan
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Surround setup for Live

Post by deHaan » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:03 pm

Hi there

I'm working on a project in which I will perform live with 8 speakers connected to the 8 outputs of my sound card.

In my Live set I have made 8 return tracks sending audio to the different outputs. I'm using a Korg NanoKontol to control the send knobs of the tracks, which works fine, though it is a little confusing.

My question is:
Is it possible to map one knob on the NanoKontrol, so that it can make the output of the track run between the different outputs? So when I turn the knob frem left to right, the tracks output will gradually go from output 1 to output 8.

Here's a picture of my setup in Live:
Image
Last edited by deHaan on Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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McQ714
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by McQ714 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:23 pm

deHaan wrote:Hi there

I'm working on a project in which I will perform live with 8 speakers connected to the 8 outputs of my sound card.

In my Live set I have made 8 return tracks sending audio to the different outputs. I'm using a Korg NanoKontol to control the send knobs of the tracks, which works fine, though it is a little confusing.

My question is:
Is it possible to map one knob on the NanoKontrol, so that it can make the output of the track run between the different outputs? So when I turn the knob frem left to right, the tracks output will gradually go from output 1 to output 8.
not sure if i understand completely and i'm not even sure this would work like i think it would, but i would say maybe setup a rack with 8 chains. under each chain, put an "external effect" device. set each device to use a different output on the interface. then map a knob on the effect rack to act as a chain select knob and midi map the knob on the nanokontrol to control that knob on the effect rack.

deHaan
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by deHaan » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:39 pm

Great idea! But how do map a knob on the effect rack to act as a chain select knob?
Check out my band Silent People's new single here:
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bosonHavoc
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by bosonHavoc » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:07 pm

check out

17.5.4 Chain Select Zones
page 239

i'm not sure if that does a great job explaining it though

i also found this on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYQiMtx9tXk
but he is creating the wet dry wrong
he maps the chain selector at 1:55

the problem with the way he does the wet dry is the volume spike created at about half way when he has both chains at %100.

to make a good dry wet knob you should always have the sum of all chains at %100.. never exceed %100. unless of course that is your intent.

the main thing to get out of this is how to map the chain selector and how to set up your chains.

also check this out...
drop in on this at 2:50.. that is when he starts getting into the chain selector
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efv7Ffv1jNc

deHaan
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by deHaan » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:23 pm

Great, thank you a lot, it works.

But there's still a problem:
I cannot make the track change gradually between the outputs. Output 1 abrubtly stops sending audio when the Chain Selector passes into output 2.

I've tried using the 'fade function' for the zones, but this does not work, as the fade ranges control the output of the chain. And my chains do not have any output, as the audio goes into the 'Extarnal Audio Effects'.

That was a bit complicated, I hope you understand me :)
Check out my band Silent People's new single here:
http://silentpeople.dk

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deHaan
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by deHaan » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:35 pm

I have found another way to make it work with the "crossfades" without using 'external audio effect'. It's quite complicated, so I won't write how unless anyone wants to know :)
Check out my band Silent People's new single here:
http://silentpeople.dk

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bosonHavoc
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by bosonHavoc » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:37 pm

i couldn't drop this hehe

so i think i was successful in making a rack using phase cancellation to create the fades.
and you only have to turn one knob to pan around the 8 speakers
i only have stereo set up but it worked and then i set it up for 8 speakers.

the download link is on this page
http://luxdivon.com/ableton.html
i put some limiters in also protect the speakers.

try it out and let me know how it works and what could be improved on.

edit..

i pulled the link because the rack doesn't do the job..
i'm going to get back to this some day if i ever have my dream surround sound set up :)
Last edited by bosonHavoc on Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chris vine
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by chris vine » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:46 am

going to check it out, thanks..........

LOFA
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by LOFA » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:25 am

deHaan wrote:I have found another way to make it work with the "crossfades" without using 'external audio effect'. It's quite complicated, so I won't write how unless anyone wants to know :)
I would be very interested in hearing how you did this.

I imagine that such things will be easier once mfl is out, but in the meantime I am curious how you got past this.

deHaan
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Re: Surround sound in Live - Question

Post by deHaan » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:35 pm

bosonHavoc wrote:i couldn't drop this hehe

so i think i was successful in making a rack using phase cancellation to create the fades.
and you only have to turn one knob to pan around the 8 speakers
i only have stereo set up but it worked and then i set it up for 8 speakers.

the download link is on this page
http://luxdivon.com/ableton.html
i put some limiters in also protect the speakers.

try it out and let me know how it works and what could be improved on.
Good thinking with the phase cancellation! However, I think I have found a better way to work it out.
The advantage of my setup, is that I do not use any 'external audio effects', but instead gather the audio in 8 return tracks sending their audio outputs to the different speakers. I think this gives a better control of your output volume, because it gives you a master volume control for each speaker.

I will try to explain my setup:

1) create a new audio track

2) set the output of the track to 'sends only'

3) create 8 return tracks, and set their outputs to ext. out 1-8

4) insert an 'audio effect rack' in the audio track.

5) create 8 empty chains in the audio effect rack. Name them 'Chain 1-8'

6) press 'show chain select editor'out

7) move the zones 8 zones so they are evenly spread

8 ) use the 'face ranges' to create cross fades between the chains (like in the picture)

9) Now click the 'Macro control map mode' button.

10) Click on the 'chain select ruler' (above the chain zones), and map it to the first macro control

11) Click the Macro control map mode button to leave map mode

12) Now create 8 audio tracks

13) Set monitoring to 'in' on all of the tracks (this is easily done by marking all of the tracks, and changing the monitoring setting on one of them)

14) Change 'input type' to '1-audio' on all of the 8 tracks (again, mark all the tracks)

15) now select 'Audio Effect Rack l Chain 1 l Post Mixer' as the 'input channel of the first of our 8 tracks.

16) Choose 'Audio Effect Rack l Chain 1 l Post Mixer' as the 'input channel of the second of our 8 tracks, and repeat the procedure for all the 8 tracks.

17) On the first of the 8 tracks, drag up the 'send A knob' on the second track drag up 'send to B knob' etc...

18) Now group the 8 "in tracks", and set the output type of the group to 'sends only'

19) Finally, click the MIDI Map mode switch, and map a knob or fader on your MIDI controller to the first macro control of the Audio Effect.

You should now be able to move the audio between the eight speakers with one knob with cross fades between the speakers.
Once you have done this, you can save the preset for Audio Effect Rack, and it should be easy to create several tracks with the "surround effect".

Feel free to asks questions if you do not understand me :)

NB: In my setup there's only 7 outputs, don't be confused.
Image
Check out my band Silent People's new single here:
http://silentpeople.dk

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intergalactic pedantic
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Re: Surround setup for Live

Post by intergalactic pedantic » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:59 am

you giant geek. :D

LOFA
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Re: Surround setup for Live

Post by LOFA » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:21 am

Stoked to look at this tomorrow. When I am sober.

deHaan
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Re: Surround setup for Live

Post by deHaan » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:32 pm

Coolcool, I hope you can make it work :)
Check out my band Silent People's new single here:
http://silentpeople.dk

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Furland
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Re: Surround setup for Live

Post by Furland » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:03 pm

Stadigvæk godt arbejde! ;-) If I had more than a stereo pair it would be cool to check it out. Someone once did a surround setup in a NY club I frequented while working there, and it was a bit freaky when the whole room seemed to spin around inside your head, kinda disorientating actually when the whole place was peaking and lights were flashing...

LOFA
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Re: Surround setup for Live

Post by LOFA » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:08 pm

Furland wrote:Stadigvæk godt arbejde! ;-) If I had more than a stereo pair it would be cool to check it out. Someone once did a surround setup in a NY club I frequented while working there, and it was a bit freaky when the whole room seemed to spin around inside your head, kinda disorientating actually when the whole place was peaking and lights were flashing...
This is one of favorite things to experience. It is quite elegant how logic handles such a task.

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