This seems to be one massive oversight on Ableton's part....

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:55 am

Ok. Rewire. It works great. But...

When you rewire Reason into Ableton Live 4, you'd expect to be able to control all Reason parameters... which you can via midi clips.

But why can't you program envelopes for Reason's parameters in the arrange view??

This really seems like a massive mistake since you can do what I want to do with VSTi's. Lets say I've got a reverb plugin on an Audio track, I could automate the wet/dry in the arrange view, without having to set up an envelope in a clip.

But the only way to automate Reason's parameters is by using envelopes in midi clips.

Forgive me for saying, but this seems really stupid. I was looking forward to being able to do this like you can in Cubase. In Cubase you can set up a track and assign it to a Subtractors filter. All fine and dandy.

You can do it in Ableton live 4 as well, but you have to use a midi clip. This just doesn't seem logical. I understand Live is geared towards performance useage, but what about the studio side of things? I don't perform with Live I use it as a studio sequencer and multitrack recorder. I love it. Its easily the best software for me.

But why is this one feature absent? I just don't understand.

Let me just pre-emptively say that I'm not bashing the program. I'm not saying its crap. I'm not saying the crew are idiots. I'm saying that the absence of this feature has really messed with my brain.

The workaround is to use extremely long midi clips... but its less conducive to the ease of use than using envelopes in the midi tracks would be.

(As an aside to this, I am finding the clips to be valuable in programing the Reason synths. )

Skylit · Post by **Skylit** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:36 am

Why Rewire Reason when you can have any VSTi directly?

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:42 am

Lets not turn this into a Reason bashing thread.

Skylit · Post by **Skylit** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:50 am

Alright, sorry. I didn't intend to.

But I just thought that it may be technically not possible to automate parameters of synths in other software, such as Reason through Rewire. What about Cubase? does it allow you to control Reason's parameters through Rewire? (I'm just asking, really)

FaX-01 · Post by **FaX-01** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:52 am

Several reasons here .
You don't need the Reason Mixer go rewire direct.
I can't get Maelstrom in a VSTi
I like NNXt for soundfonds as it has a full drop down synth panel for further program tweeking.
Subtractor is actually very good at icy thin digtal drone scapes
REX Player which can be programmed using the Live 4.0 midi features with scale /random and other midi options.
I have a crap load of custom .drp redrum files .
It is very CPU efficient when you pull out the Reason Mixer and sequence the devices from within Live.
I can get 2 Sub's , 7 Maelstrom's , a Redrum 2 or 3 rex devices a couple on NNXT's and have room left over for Simpler /Imulse a few Crystal ,FM7 and Superwave patches no problems.
Infact I've got only 2 audio tracks and 17 midi tracks in my latest piece and CPU useage is perfectly acceptable (around 65-70% with vst effects device also) .
Would you like a few more excuses for still using Reason I could think of a few

....................
Like a proper pattern sequencer that's playable via the session view with full clip automation of Reason devices.
I can jam an arrangement from Session to Arranger and have the best of both worlds.
Subtractor is great for programming synthetic drum patches ditto Maelstrom.
Need a few more ???????

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:26 pm

Skylit wrote:Alright, sorry. I didn't intend to.

But I just thought that it may be technically not possible to automate parameters of synths in other software, such as Reason through Rewire. What about Cubase? does it allow you to control Reason's parameters through Rewire? (I'm just asking, really)

You can automate Reason through Live or I should say along side of Live - record you moevments in and play them back - it's pretty

Reason is not as taxing on my Live session as say NI's Kontakt and Battery

I'm starting to come to grips that my computer is not as powerful as I once thought

I'm having to bounce effects down more and more lately - hmmm

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:50 pm

Skylit wrote:Alright, sorry. I didn't intend to.

But I just thought that it may be technically not possible to automate parameters of synths in other software, such as Reason through Rewire. What about Cubase? does it allow you to control Reason's parameters through Rewire? (I'm just asking, really)

If you'd read my post you'd know that both Ableton Live 4 and Cubase can automate Reason parameters. However in Live 4 you're required to do it by using midi clips, you can't just do it in the arrange view like you would any normal vsti.

The idea of Rewire is that your rewire slave is supposed to function just like a VSTi, so I can't think of any Reason why the Props' wouldn't include this.

Maybe they just didn't realise??

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:53 am

I guess no-one really cares that the rewire implementation has a flaw......

ekko · Post by **ekko** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:20 pm

Amberience wrote:
The idea of Rewire is that your rewire slave is supposed to function just like a VSTi, so I can't think of any Reason why the Props' wouldn't include this.

I've never heard this before. Perhaps you're assigning a task to ReWire that was never the intention of the Propellerheads?

Rewire's official description:

"ReWire is a system for transferring audio data between two computer applications, in real time. Basically, you could view ReWire as an "invisible cable" that streams audio from one computer program into another."

FaX-01 · Post by **FaX-01** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:15 pm

Rewire in Live 4 with Reason transfer's midi on a per device basis also though for both parameter and CC control and midi notation data.
So yes it does work essentially like a VSti in Live 4.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:27 pm

I wish the Ableton crew would say something on this matter. Its got me really confused. I can't think of any feasible reason why it shouldn't be implemented in this way??

If Live is now touted as a Live performance instrument and studio sequencer, this is a must have feature.

the8bitdeity · Post by **the8bitdeity** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:56 pm

I'm still confused as to the issue. Are you upset because "Subtractor" doesn't show up in the clip pull down menu? That's what I gather from your statements. This is because that polls instantiated plugins, which publish automatable parameters to the host software. Currently you're just using a MIDI track to send data to Reason. I don't think Reason publishes any parameters to host software, AFAIK. I think ReWire only publishes it's outputs. What you're asking for would require substantial modifications to the current ReWire standard.

the8bitdeity · Post by **the8bitdeity** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:03 pm

I read over your initial statement again, now I understand what you're looking for. Basically you want MIDI automation w/o the necessity of a MIDI clip, correct? If so I agree, this is a PITA.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:32 pm

That is correct. I can do this fine with a midi clip. Reason does publish all its controllers into Ableton Live, and Live's rewire implementation far surpasses every other single implementation out there.

The only glitch in it is what I mentioned - Arranger tracks can't control Reason devices. Midi clips can do it fine.