mostly synths.. mostly samples?

[danzel]

I was wondering what peoples different approaches to producing were when it comes to choosing your sound sources? I'm trying to improve on my sound design, and trying to get my stuff to sound less 'synthy'.. a lot of my favourite producers are using a lot of sampling such as prefuse73, mad-EP, kelpe, flying lotus... but i find i really struggle with using a lot of samples as i find it hard to get things to work together nicely, particularly in terms of tuning and key. I tend to always get a bit dissatisfied with the limitations of how high or low i can play samples before they start to sound ropey and go back to using synths which are always nicely in tune no matter where you play. Nick Zombie's sound design tutorials have helped a me lot in getting into sampling, and i'm still learning a lot from them, but at the minute my drums and percussion are mostly where i use samples and melodic stuff and basslines are usually synths. What say ye?

[contakt321]

I know the feeling. For nearly 10 years I pretty much only used samples (making hip-hop stuff). For the last year and change, I made a commitment to only use synths so I could focus on learning to write my own material better. Just recently I have brought sampling back into the mix and combined sampling and synths and I am feeling really good about my new material.

As far as tuning: part of the benefit of sampling is that some things are perfect, beautifully flawed, which is a nice contrasts to our perfect synths, etc. If you are having a hard time getting your own synths to play melodies, etc in the same key, use the tuning preset of the spectrum effect on the sample and try to pick apart what notes/chords are being employed (technically cheating, but I totally do it - which I had this years ago )

As far as high or lo: Yeah, this is definitely a limitation, but also a benefit. I advise you to start thinking outside of the initial context of your sample. Tons of hip-hop records are sampled from slow records, but played at the wrong speed (45 rpm) and/or sped up in a sampler. Similarly, some are fast songs slowed WAY down. It gives you interesting effects.

Lastly, an interesting note: Many drum & bass and dubstep producers prefer to make a bass sound with their synth, then sample just one long note, toss it into a sampler, effect it, re-sample, etc. This adds artifacts, alters the sound and speed of playback and these traditionally "bad" things, are what give these basses (one of the most important elements in this genre) a ton of character.

Just my thoughts, hope that inspires you.

[CHARLIE!]

I say that finidng good samples is really hard... thats why it is such an art when it works well.


I think if you like the sample sound you should either A) try harder, search harder for good samples and keep practicing or B)resample your own recordings.

You can put your own synth line in a sampler and make it sound totally different. even a multilayer segment you have... sample it for that choppy sound.

[danzel]

Thanks a lot fellas
Some very good points here already, choosing samples can be a problem at times.. and i think this can mess up my flow quite a bit as i can spend too much time digging the digital crate in the middle of trying to get something together. I also find it interesting that you were wanting to go the other way contakt321, using more synths and being less reliant on samples, did you think that using samples was not allowing you to make your stuff fully your own?.. Also that bass resampling thing, i've heard of this before, how far can you use just one note for before the need to multisample?
many thanks

[SubFunk]

nearly all synths and single drum hit samples plus here and there the odd effect or vox bit as a sample.
and then mangled, tweaked, messed about with, etc.

[contakt321]

Thanks a lot fellas
Some very good points here already, choosing samples can be a problem at times.. and i think this can mess up my flow quite a bit as i can spend too much time digging the digital crate in the middle of trying to get something together. I also find it interesting that you were wanting to go the other way contakt321, using more synths and being less reliant on samples, did you think that using samples was not allowing you to make your stuff fully your own?.. Also that bass resampling thing, i've heard of this before, how far can you use just one note for before the need to multisample?
many thanks

I challenged myself to use synths because I wanted to expand beyond hip-hop and didn't know where I wanted to go. Working in hip-hop (and the way I was working in particular) so much of what you do is dictated by the record you chopped up. I wanted to truly learn how to write my own melodies, arrangements, etc so I used the synth only route as way to force myself to do it.

I have no ethical issues about sampling, you would be amazed, some of the best songs are looped samples (even in techno, house and jungle - not to name names but cough...Kevin Saunderson, LTJ Bukem, etc...). I did this to improve my writing.

As far as the bass thing, it depends on the sample source, but typically within an octave or two you are fine. The last two tracks I have made I used a single bass note in simpler as opposed to my go-to synths for bass (Operator, Massive, etc) and I really liked the sound.

[danzel]

I have no ethical issues about sampling

I have no ethical issues about anything at all (joking)
I think that i'm basically trying to stick to the same methods i have learnt with synths but with different sounds, and its not working too well.. i really like writing melodies and basslines, and i don't really want to pinch them so much as i want to pinch sounds themselves because i think there is so much variety with things recorded into microphones as opposed to oscillators... different ambiences, vintage microphones, different recording techniques etc.

[contakt321]

I think you are right on point about the different sound characteristics samples bring.

It's interesting, I have had an on going dialogue with friends about how many newer (as in started on software, don't use vinyl) sample based producers, as well as non hip-hop producers generally approach sampling very different (not better or worse) than older producers who were sampling in the 90's.

First some basics (in case you, or other readers don't know):

1. Intros are typically the best place to find samples because they are usually more dramatic and/or offer sparser instrumentation, or don't have drums.
2. Always try to sample a little more than you need and then tighten it up in the sampler. I tend to leave a little more of the sample at the end point and adjust the decay so it blends better (and doesn't sound choppy, which can be a good effect if intended).
3. Since you mentioned you like writing your own melodies, try to find samples of just a single or only a few instruments playing. This way you can load into simpler and play across the keys and typically have better results than a chopped sound of a full band (which again, can be good too, depending on the effect).

You definitely have to approach sampling slightly different than using synths. Try these two techniques:

1. Find a sample single instrument playing a chord, note or phrase you like. Load that hit into Simpler (or drum racks - I usually use drum racks for chords or samples w/ more instrumentation and copy to different pads and manually tune to only the notes I want). Create a basic melody with just this simpler over a simple drum beat, hi-hat pattern or metronome. From there, start adding more instrumentation from synths, Vsts, etc.

2. Make most of a song with synths. Identify a sound you are missing - say a piano. Now go into your record/cd/mp3 collection and find an isolated piano sample, sample it, re tune it and play that sample into your beat.

Those are two ways that I work, then combine them, break all the rules, go apesh*t!

[Nick the Zombie]

I'm glad the tutorials helped out You're now running into one of those fundamental limitations of using samples for melodic material; as you said, you can't transpose it much in either direction before it sounds like crap. A lot of those guys that you are citing as your favorite artists (nice list, by the way!) are masters of going through record collections, radio, movies, video games, etc. to find material that is already tuned to the register that they want that instrument to be playing in. I've heard tracks where the producer will have, for example, a saxophone solo that he/she created with individual sax hits that came from many different records. Amon Tobin is ridiculously talented at this, and many of his drum solos are created in the same fashion - a hit from this record, a roll from that record, all tuned and timed to be nearly seamless. This ultimately comes down to knowing your sampling materials somewhat intimately, and being able to turn to the right source quickly enough before you lose your inspiration. Of course, knowing the tools will be essential here as well.

Have you tried out Melodyne? I haven't tried the current incarnation of the program, but I think it might have a lot to offer you with your retuning issues. Also, contakt321's tips are right on point, and that's all stuff you can do solely in Live without having to branch out into other tools.

- Nick

[contakt321]

FWIW:

I have used Melodyne, and like it for crazy effects on vocals, but I don't find the current version to offer much that Live cant do (other than formant adjustment, which I wonder if I could do in Live and just don't know). However, when Melodybe DNA comes out, it will change the game of sampling because you will be able to adjust individual notes within the chord. Can't wait for that one.

Also, just want to shout Nick:

I feel like I could sample my @ss off in a very hip-hop way, but your tutorials taught me how to really do sound design with a sampler and have helped a ton to expand my repertoire with a sampler.

[robotsound]

Alchemy makes samples into synths...

[danzel]

individual sax hits that came from many different records.

thats insane!
I don't consider myself lazy, but being honest i don't think i could be arsed to do that! but respect to anyone that could do that and get the intended results.. if i tried that i bet it would sound laughably bad.
contakt: brilliant suggestions, i shall be trying them. and a good bit of insight.. thanks

Nick: thanks also, if you're wondering if this is the dude emailing you with similar questions a few weeks back it is. Your help was appreciated and i've had some success with the tuning to operator technique you suggested.. i just thought i'd throw this one out there to see what people thought as i'm still messing around with different approaches. When is sound design 2 out?

On a side note i discovered an interesting thing the other day.. i sampled a car crash off a film and used the resonators effect on the clip and set a chord. it had a really slow attack and then a burst of sound as the car crashed so it made for a really nice strumming effect

[Chicle777]

Another method is experimenting with drastic pitch and filter envelopes modulations or LFOs to get a totally different sound.

Besides Melodyne there is Sonicworx from Prosoniq
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=END9FSpgh7A

[aqua_tek]

60% synths, 40% samples (mostly made up of drums, vocals, and other misc samples)

[Nick the Zombie]

@danzel and contakt321 - Thanks for the comments guys, that's much appreciated To answer danzel's question, my second sound design series (which focuses on Operator and Audio Effects) is about 1/3 done. Procrastination is an ugly thing

- Nick