pulsoc wrote:That's the big problem, and the wars we are waging in the mideast are just another example of the cynicism which the "west" (US) brings to international relations. Everyone with half a brain recognizes that we don't put our money where our mouth is, and that most of the problems we are trying to rectify are our own making (e.g. Saddam Hussein and the Taliban, both were trained and supplied by the US)M. Bréqs wrote:I do agree with you though when you said that they'll hate us until we can change that person's mind. The way we do that is through honest dialog about the West's contribution. But more than that, we must demonstrate our principles. Our actions must mirror our principles. We do that by trying to help the world, by increasing the standard of living of the poor, by driving away tyrrany, and offering them rationality as an alternative to ideological or religious dogma.
I'm not saying it's fine. But I AM saying that, in this case, the truth is not important. Simply because the perception is what produces the results we see.M. Bréqs wrote: If I understand you point correctly, you're saying that the truth is not important. If people want to buy into a bullshit blame-story about why they're suffering, then that's fine? I don't agree.
This is exactly the point many ppl in this forum are saying. Well, at least trying to say.M. Bréqs wrote: I do agree with you though when you said that they'll hate us until we can change that person's mind. The way we do that is through honest dialog about the West's contribution. But more than that, we must demonstrate our principles. Our actions must mirror our principles. We do that by trying to help the world, by increasing the standard of living of the poor, by driving away tyrrany, and offering them rationality as an alternative to ideological or religious dogma.
The Taliban was a cold war product, and a very bad decision was made to aid and abet these whackos. Hussein was supported to offset the fundementalist regime in iran, which was a result of widespread resentment of the puppet govt which the cia installed to depose the democratically elected govt preceeding. And now the region is supposed to thank the freedom wielding fist of the US? Come on, really. All you have to do is consider how bad we look from their perspective. Is the west bad? No. I agree with many of Mbreqs points, particularly concerning enlightenment ideals. But the west has made a lot of bad calls the past bunch of decades, and needs to seriously SELF-evaluate and recalibrate. We need to recognize that just because we're FROM here doesn't mean our leaders (and handlers) have always done the right thing by our neighbors.Olga wrote:pulsoc wrote:That's the big problem, and the wars we are waging in the mideast are just another example of the cynicism which the "west" (US) brings to international relations. Everyone with half a brain recognizes that we don't put our money where our mouth is, and that most of the problems we are trying to rectify are our own making (e.g. Saddam Hussein and the Taliban, both were trained and supplied by the US)M. Bréqs wrote:I do agree with you though when you said that they'll hate us until we can change that person's mind. The way we do that is through honest dialog about the West's contribution. But more than that, we must demonstrate our principles. Our actions must mirror our principles. We do that by trying to help the world, by increasing the standard of living of the poor, by driving away tyrrany, and offering them rationality as an alternative to ideological or religious dogma.
To add to this, what every know it all seems to forget is that Hussein and the Taliban we're dealing with the united states during the cold war with the USSR that everyone seems to conveniently forget about. The US and the Soviets back then were playing a global chess match of idiocy with that entire region in the middle of what could have ended in a nuclear war. Everyone forgets all about that. Now its just, Oooooo, the CIA created the taliban! West = Bad.
jashic wrote:I'm not saying it's fine. But I AM saying that, in this case, the truth is not important. Simply because the perception is what produces the results we see.M. Bréqs wrote: If I understand you point correctly, you're saying that the truth is not important. If people want to buy into a bullshit blame-story about why they're suffering, then that's fine? I don't agree.
This is exactly the point many ppl in this forum are saying. Well, at least trying to say.M. Bréqs wrote: I do agree with you though when you said that they'll hate us until we can change that person's mind. The way we do that is through honest dialog about the West's contribution. But more than that, we must demonstrate our principles. Our actions must mirror our principles. We do that by trying to help the world, by increasing the standard of living of the poor, by driving away tyrrany, and offering them rationality as an alternative to ideological or religious dogma.
We can boast all we want about how good the west is, how kind we are, how honorable we are, how many good deeds we do and how much foreign aid we give.
It could all be true!
But, It all doesn't matter if no one is listening and no one recognizes it. We could be the best civilization in the world and the most generous, if no one recognizes it, then what does it mean? If everyone thinks we are the devil, then the devil we are until we change that perception.
Guantanamo, Abu Ghuraib, Secret CIA torture prisons, random civilian shootings by gung ho contractors, our silence during Israel's invasion of Lebanon, etc. All these things undermine our effort to change that perception.
+1. I've met some of these guys, and they're no help at all. I'm as morally opposed to mercenaries as I am to conscription. They're not accountable, and that's the core of military force; accountability for the use of force. That's why there's ALWAYS an after action report for every kinetic incident, even if a donkey steps on a landmine left over from the soviets in the middle of the desert. Accountability.Olga wrote: civilian shootings by gung ho contractors - Probably right on this. Black water and their goons are idiots.
A little off topic, but bang on point there Olga.Olga wrote:Israel's invasion of Lebanon? ? ? When you hear a BBC story of a Jew sneaking into Lebanon to blow themselves up to kill muslim children at a bus stop because the torah told them to, please repost.
All fucking ears you anti semitic arm chair mocha lava lite Starbucks drinking pussies.
M. Bréqs wrote:+1. I've met some of these guys, and they're no help at all. I'm as morally opposed to mercenaries as I am to conscription. They're not accountable, and that's the core of military force; accountability for the use of force. That's why there's ALWAYS an after action report for every kinetic incident, even if a donkey steps on a landmine left over from the soviets in the middle of the desert. Accountability.Olga wrote: civilian shootings by gung ho contractors - Probably right on this. Black water and their goons are idiots.
A little off topic, but bang on point there Olga.Olga wrote:Israel's invasion of Lebanon? ? ? When you hear a BBC story of a Jew sneaking into Lebanon to blow themselves up to kill muslim children at a bus stop because the torah told them to, please repost.
All fucking ears you anti semitic arm chair mocha lava lite Starbucks drinking pussies.
Olga wrote: I'm with you Bréqs, its a shame the U.S. is so full of absolute spineless pussies. It's Pathetic.
arachnaut wrote:I think I made my first Usenet post in 1989 and my first web site in 1994. I was surprised to see that I can search for things I wrote as far back as 1995 quite easily.
Some of you guys (and any gals in here) might one day wish you didn't write in the style you do or use words the way you do.
Consider what an employer might do if they find your forum id, or what might happen if you try to run for public office outside of an anarchist party.
When I grew up I had a summer job in a mill that paid well, but I had to work around people who spoke the way things are written in here. I told myself I would go to college and get a good job so that I wouldn't have to be around this type of person.
If it weren't for the occasional good tip that's so hard to find through the vast amount of noise I'd be out of here in a flash.
OK, now you have probably labeled me as a holier-than-thou, pretentious jerk, but please take this in the spirit of friendly, common-sense advice.
You will be remembered forever by what you write today.
Continue the perception moron. Keep at it. If you think you'll win this war w/o changing the perception, you are in for a long long long war.Olga wrote:M. Bréqs wrote:+1. I've met some of these guys, and they're no help at all. I'm as morally opposed to mercenaries as I am to conscription. They're not accountable, and that's the core of military force; accountability for the use of force. That's why there's ALWAYS an after action report for every kinetic incident, even if a donkey steps on a landmine left over from the soviets in the middle of the desert. Accountability.Olga wrote: civilian shootings by gung ho contractors - Probably right on this. Black water and their goons are idiots.
A little off topic, but bang on point there Olga.Olga wrote:Israel's invasion of Lebanon? ? ? When you hear a BBC story of a Jew sneaking into Lebanon to blow themselves up to kill muslim children at a bus stop because the torah told them to, please repost.
All fucking ears you anti semitic arm chair mocha lava lite Starbucks drinking pussies.
I'm with you Bréqs, its a shame the U.S. is so full of absolute spineless pussies. It's Pathetic.
Again, you miss the point of the post. Go read it again. I don't give a fuck what you're opinion is on those things I described. I don't even give a fuck if you are right. That's the point, mcfly. I see reading comprehension is not you're strong suit. I suggest self-help aids.Olga wrote: This is the way I see this.
Guantanamo - Totally necessary. These people are extremists in every sense of the word you male pussies. Its like a prison filled with child molesters. 'Well if we let you go what will you do"? answer "Rape & kill as many kids as I can, please let me go" And these extremists are better cared for than many americans themselves according to Michael Moore.
Abu Ghuraib - Five dumb red necks acting on their own. Obviously not policy to anyone with 1/3 of a brain. And if it was policy do you really think they'd allow cameras in there? Pull the head out and use toilet paper.
Secret CIA torture prisons. - "Torture" ? - Proof? Take PC away and the united states can wipe out the entire earth in the blink of an eye militarily. I don't see this happening so ummmm.
civilian shootings by gung ho contractors - Probably right on this. Black water and their goons are idiots.
Israel's invasion of Lebanon? ? ? When you hear a BBC story of a Jew sneaking into Lebanon to blow themselves up to kill muslim children at a bus stop because the torah told them to, please repost.
All fucking ears you anti semitic arm chair mocha lava lite Starbucks drinking pussies.