Using Max 4 Live "effects without owning M4L?

[stringtapper]

No offense; but IMO that is just what you're doing. Dismissing the effort that went into adopting Max and getting it "Live compliant" as something that should simply go unpaid because anyone can do it?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but it's an argument that's often brought up against the wish of a free runtime, so I'll add my view/wishes.

I personally own Live 8 suite, boxed. That's everything Ableton offer except for the Orchestral Instrument Collection (having EIC as well as reason 4 with the orchertra sound bank - and generally not really being that interested in "real" intrument sounds - I don't have the need for it).

I bought a launchpad, which gets money to ableton. And when it was released Novation stated they would release a free step sequencer for use with the LP once max for live was out. And I do feel kind of deceived that would I now have to pay to use this free sequencer I was promised.

I'm not "Dismissing the effort" and I'm not dismissing the power max/m4l offer.
BUT, I have No interest in programming loads of devices or even using 100s of devices made by others. I have 3, maybe 4 3rd party instruments and 6 effects that I really use next to live's - haven't really touched reason since I upgraded to suite - and my hardware.

I'm happy with Live as it is (or at least the parts I'm not happy with will not be solved by m4l but also criple the max part of it - ie. no sysex, poly aftertouch support), and I want to spend my time, energy and money to make music not to code instruments or effects (thousands of free ones on the to be found on the web anyway) or create devices that "improve my workflow" (so suppsidly saving time - but in the end I'll probably spend more time learning how it works than I'd save when I've finally got it). I've tried quite a few max sequencers with the runtime, but none work Like I'd want them to: recording midi for 7-8 notes/drums into lives clip view, so I can use any live devices with the loops, then launch these clips using the LP's session grid. I've 'programed' one using only midi clips and live's internal routing, but that allways gives me slight pauses at the end of each loop also making it unusable.

Anyway as said, I was "prommised" a free stepsequencer device when I payed for my hardware and that stepsequencer is all I want. And no-one can tell me that this is worth €250. Before I go for that, I'd save up for a nemo or something like that. I know that costs a hell of alot more, but it would give me exactly what I want, as well as help get me away from the computer, which both my eye's and nerves would thank me for - m4l on the other hand would lead to the complete opposite.

Show me where you were promised a step sequencer that would not require Max for Live to run.

Max for Live costs money, the step sequencer device itself does not. Sorry you won't use M4L for anything else, but you have not been lied to.

[Dexes]

Show me where you were promised a step sequencer that would not require Max for Live to run.

They said there's gonna be a free stepsequencer to use in live once max4live was released. At the time launchpad was released, there was no mention of having to buy max4live to use this, and no info from ableton or cycling on whether there's gonna be a free runtime.

Max for Live costs money, the step sequencer device itself does not. Sorry you won't use M4L for anything else, but you have not been lied to.

Didn't your mother ever teach you that not telling the whole truth is basicly the same as lying?

I (we all) was promised a free step-sequencer to use with the launchpad and ableton live. The requirement to own max for live was not mentioned with a single word. Only that it will be available when m4l is out (due to the fact that is was coded using this)

When telephone networks offer a mobile for free they also have to add the small print stating that you only get this if you sign up for a 2 year contract. This "small print" was deffenatly missing at the time.

[stringtapper]

They said there's gonna be a free stepsequencer to use in live once max4live was released. At the time launchpad was released, there was no mention of having to buy max4live to use this, and no info from ableton or cycling on whether there's gonna be a free runtime.

You're still not showing me.

Didn't your mother ever teach you that not telling the whole truth is basicly the same as lying?

I (we all) was promised a free step-sequencer to use with the launchpad and ableton live. The requirement to own max for live was not mentioned with a single word. Only that it will be available when m4l is out (due to the fact that is was coded using this)

When telephone networks offer a mobile for free they also have to add the small print stating that you only get this if you sign up for a 2 year contract. This "small print" was deffenatly missing at the time.

So you're saying that you couldn't make the correlation that if Novation was releasing the step sequencer when Max for Live was available that it would be a Max for Live device? What would be the purpose of stating that the device would be released when Max for Live was available if the step sequencer were some other kind of device (?) that would not require Max for live? What did you think this Novation step sequencer would be? Did you think it would be some new standalone device?

No, it was clear that the device was a Max for Live device and anyone who paid any attention to Ableton's marketing of Max for Live knew that in order to run Max for Live devices you have to own a Max for Live license. Just because you chose to ignore the obvious does not mean you were lied to or that anyone owes you anything other than what you have purchased.

[Kodama]

Dexes - FYI - The seqs in M4L are in no way perfect. When the demo comes out, you might want to check them out. Most people will need to reprogram them to their needs. I've personally chosen a 3rd party option (Numerology) for this.

Still - even for the non-Max programmer - there are some really nice devices in M4L, and I'm sure that more will become available.

[Dexes]

They said there's gonna be a free stepsequencer to use in live once max4live was released. At the time launchpad was released, there was no mention of having to buy max4live to use this, and no info from ableton or cycling on whether there's gonna be a free runtime.

You're still not showing me.

Because novation have updated their site and dont have the pre m4l release message up anymore. Where the text used to be, there's just a link with "Download the Max for Live Step Sequencer here"

Didn't your mother ever teach you that not telling the whole truth is basicly the same as lying?

I (we all) was promised a free step-sequencer to use with the launchpad and ableton live. The requirement to own max for live was not mentioned with a single word. Only that it will be available when m4l is out (due to the fact that is was coded using this)

When telephone networks offer a mobile for free they also have to add the small print stating that you only get this if you sign up for a 2 year contract. This "small print" was deffenatly missing at the time.

So you're saying that you couldn't make the correlation that if Novation was releasing the step sequencer when Max for Live was available that it would be a Max for Live device? What would be the purpose of stating that the device would be released when Max for Live was available if the step sequencer were some other kind of device (?) that would not require Max for live? What did you think this Novation step sequencer would be? Did you think it would be some new standalone device?

Oh come on don't give me that bullshit. I never stated that I thought it would not be a max4live device, I even wrote that they sait it would be using m4l in the text you quoted

No, it was clear that the device was a Max for Live device and anyone who paid any attention to Ableton's marketing of Max for Live knew that in order to run Max for Live devices you have to own a Max for Live license. Just because you chose to ignore the obvious does not mean you were lied to or that anyone owes you anything other than what you have purchased.

um No. Before the release of m4l which was several weeks after launchpad (and the corresponding message came) in not a singal message/post/video/newsletter/email/webpage text did ableton or cycling state or hint to whether there would be a free runtime or if the purchase of the programm would be required. There were many threads here with lots and lots of posts by loads of people, but not one squeak from an ableton or cycling representative before the date of release.

[Dennis DeSantis]

There are no plans to release a runtime version of Max for Live in the immediate future.

I don't think there was an announcement regarding the existence of a step-sequencer using Max for Live technology that would be available outside of Max for Live. Does someone have this announcement?

Best,

[Dexes]

I don't think there was an announcement regarding the existence of a step-sequencer using Max for Live technology that would be available outside of Max for Live.

No there wasn't one, but there was one stating there would be a free one for using with launchpad & live, without specifically stating that a purchase of m4l would be necessary. And considering cycling have a history of releasing free runtimes I feel this is something that should be emphesised when advertising a product, as not to misslead any customers.

[Dexes]

Now... I only paid attention to the Novation launchpad when it was well released so can't really comment on anything which they said before that period. Still, when looking at their website now I clearly see it stating: "The StepSeq is currently a BETA version. To run it you will need Ableton Live 8.1, Max For Live and a Launchpad.".

I can't be sure, but I have a hard time believing that a company would make false claims like that. In the US they'd risk getting their asses sued over, in the EU they'd risk customers demanding them to make good on their claims. Both options with very unwelcome end results.

I'll just say it again so no one else tries to put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

They did not say one could use it without max for live. But they did not specifically state one would need to purchase it to use this sequencer. And as said above, cycling have a history for releasing a free runtime for their product and there were alot of speculations going on here and other places to whether or not there would be one.

So nothing happened that one could sue any of the companies for (and even IF I'd have no interest in doing so). I just feel that it would have been a nice gesture if an official representative would have made a statement earlier, so one would know what to expect. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Dennis DeSantis]

Hi Dexes,

I'm sorry if you felt misled by the communication around the step sequencer.

We tried to make it very clear that there would be a large number of devices that would come, for free, with Max for Live. This was not at all meant to imply that any of them would be available without having first purchased Max for Live.

The Max for Live installation nearly doubles the number of devices in your Live library. This does not include the library of user-created devices which expands daily. But for the time being, none of this technology is available without a full, licensed copy of Max for Live.

Best,

[Bizon]

You act as if I was some kid on Ableton's lawn trying to steal their overly complicated lawn mower. C74 might make the same money with Ableton charging $299 as they would with it being included in the suite. I also work for a software company and I know that figures are malleable to produce a profitable result..

The catholic church has been profiting from peoples fear of the unknown for centuries.
So i guess software developers are just doing what works.

I think we just need to come to terms with the fact that Ableton is a business not an artform.
The Ableton community is/will not based on a culture of creativity and sharing with M4L as many hoped it would be.

CLEARLY ! Ableton could have a M4L runtime. But they dont.

Its a real shame.

Ah, I think you mean all religions?

[LoopStationZebra]

Novation did have a note about a free stepsequencer on the pre-Launch page of their website. This was up for a month or so prior to launch. It didn't mention M4L at all.

The notice stayed the same about a month or so after release, then they changed it to mention M4L.

Nowhere on the Ableton site was a free stepsequencer promised with the purchase of the LP. At least, not one that wasn't a part of M4L.

I call bullshit on this 'deceptive advertising' claim. Complete and utter rubbish. Someone at Novation just didn't have their head screwed on correctly and, when they found the problem, they corrected it.

ffs.

[Dennis DeSantis]

Ok, so the Novation website claimed that this would be free and did not explicitly mention the dependency on Max for Live.

It seems, as was suggested, that someone at Novation simply made a mistake here, and clarified the posting when the mistake was realized.

Please note that Ableton is not responsible for how external content creators market or present their Max for Live creations. For the foreseeable future, all Max for Live devices will require Max for Live.

Best,

[LoopStationZebra]

For the foreseeable future, all Max for Live devices will require Max for Live.

lol.

I want a t-shirt that says that. Seriously.

[stringtapper]

Before the release of m4l which was several weeks after launchpad (and the corresponding message came) in not a singal message/post/video/newsletter/email/webpage text did ableton or cycling state or hint to whether there would be a free runtime or if the purchase of the programm would be required. There were many threads here with lots and lots of posts by loads of people, but not one squeak from an ableton or cycling representative before the date of release.

So they never said anything about a runtime and therefore you assumed that they would offer one? What?

And Ableton made it perfectly clear that a purchase of Max for Live would be required to run Max for Live devices. That's why they're called "Max for Live devices."

Other than that, sorry about Novation's screw-up.

[djsynchro]

I think Macs are overpriced. The i7 processor has been out for ages but still not for Apple booh!