automation timing accuracy

tw1nstates · Post by **tw1nstates** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:02 pm

@ Ethios,

no, but sort of.

I actually didn't post what was going on correctly, It's not a straight kick drum audio file, it's a kick loadeed into Simpler tiwht a little bit of the attack shaved off. (like a milisecond and a half). This is constant though and doesn't change.

it's weird though as live constantly reports different volumes even though it's effectively a static sample.

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:14 pm

could you post a short tutorial how to reproduce this bug? makes confirmation much easier

tw1nstates · Post by **tw1nstates** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:45 pm

Yeah I will do shortly.
if you read back through my posts on this topic I essentially tell you how to do it.

i'll try to post an ableton project file later. I suspect it's when there is a heavy cpu strain rather than just with any old kick drum or sound, haven't tested in depth. Will do so later though. . .

paulmaddox · Post by **paulmaddox** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:36 pm

I've been working on a project today where this issue has been a real nuisance.

Will do a simple project with sounds from the library tonight to demonstrate.

paulmaddox · Post by **paulmaddox** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:05 pm

Hi all - I've done a little more digging and it seems (as suspected) this bug is to do with PDC.

https://download.yousendit.com/S1VBek91YSt3TGhMWEE9PQ
Here is a link to a simple demo project to illustrate it. If you have no 3rd party plugins involved at all, the timing is perfect, but as soon as one is put in the chain before the automated plugin (in this case the Ableton reverb) it knocks the timing out. This discrepancy can be lessened by lowering the plugin buffer size, but can't be avoided completely.

Below is an image of bounces with and without a 3rd party plugin in the chain:

I have tried this with a number of 3rd party plugins all with the same result. Interestingly, in this example moving the plugin to the end of the chain (ie. after the device being automated) cures the problem, although this obviously isn't a suitable workaround for all scenarios.

Be interested to hear anyone from Ableton's take on this as it it real annoyance.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:24 pm

Yes, the automation latency and metering latency is caused by PDC....automation and metering do not appear to be delay compensated. Boooo!!!

paulmaddox · Post by **paulmaddox** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:41 pm

Yeah, that definitely seems to be the case. Seems a bit of a strange oversight though, to delay compensate the audio itself but not the automation. Most other modern hosts seem to do this correctly.

Any feedback from anyone at Ableton on this? Would be good to know if it's being worked on or at least aware of as being a problem.

Might have to switch back to another DAW for arranging if this isn't at least on the cards for a bugfix, which would be a shame.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:53 pm

Might be good to post in the Bugs forum or Feature Wishlist....probably Wishlist since it isn't really a bug, just a design oversight.

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:54 pm

oh, yes please forward it to ableton tech support PDC seems to be a complicated topic, but such things should work in a daw.

ps: I could't open your project, because you used samples from abletons 'drum machine' and the airEQ.

drako · Post by **drako** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:02 pm

Working with UAD and Ableton is a pain in the ass this way, annoying me for years.
Hope the Abes will fix this drama.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:13 pm

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138414

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:24 pm

I can reproduce it. I think it's not a 'feature wish' it's a bug.

As I like to say, I'm a man of science and so I don't give too much about "I feel it sounds different" when I don't have a proof. But I have to say: I often have this feeling in ableton and therefore I don't think it's too funny that I stumble again over a PDC problem which can be a real cause for this kind of feelings... no cheap propaganda here, but I hope ableton takes this serious.

again, it would be great if the op can mail ableton support about this topic. and thanks for your research paulmaddox.

h4nc0 · Post by **h4nc0** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:41 pm

mr.ergonomics · Post by **mr.ergonomics** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:56 pm

Here is another screen, I hope it's easier to understand for people who are not familiar with this problem.

[nis] · Post by **[nis]** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:34 am

Hi folks, automation data are not (and have never been) delay-compensated in Live. We know that this isn't an ideal solution, but that's the way it is right now. There are however several PDC improvements planned for future versions, so this is likely going to change one day. I can't promise anything, though (as always).

Best,
Nico

automation timing accuracy

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