Democracy still works. Bill a no go

[hambone1]

This isn't just about the government and big business. It's easy to point fingers at someone else.

It's also about irresponsible borrowing and lending, and people living beyond their means. Without the personal discipline and values to control ourselves, it has been forced upon us.

And when the smoke clears, maybe we'll see past the materialism to what's really important in life.

[adventurepants_]

i think there has been a massive point missed here.

This has got to have an effect on the prices of Midi controllers, and synth hardware, and computers in general. Electronic parts have been so incredibly cheap in the last few years, this has to go up as the dollar gets weaker against the Asian economies. (theyre wobbling too, but not yet to the extent of US/Europe)

The German economy is also affected. Will the Abes have to raise prices to stay liquid? Will development slow as the user base shrinks? Less people with less money and time to spend on music software means slower profits and more conservative directions.

Bail out the Bank of Ableton!

[Landwhale]

what does any of that have to do with your original spiel about your traffic fine? what have YOU done to agitate against the hateful, watchful eye of the toll road nexus of the Illuminati? It seems to me you didnt care that much about the watchful eye of the toll roads until you got a fine.

By your very words, youre not interested in revolutionising society, you cant wait for it to collapse so you and Deva can feel smug.

Oh and by the way, getting het up about politics topics on an audio forum is every bit as retarded as watching Dancing with the Stars on TV, dont kid yourself.

Whew, for a minute, I thought I was sitting atop the intellectual world within this forum, but your words have brought me crashing back to such a harsh reality. Please, do speak more.
I can almost see that slight, innocent twinkle of retardation in your eyes.

Anyways, don't bother with the point. You'll do everything in your means to avoid or attempt to discredit it, rather than offer up any real argument. You're only supporting me, whether you're aware of it or not, and it makes me SO smug!
So we'll just both agree to fuck off, we don't want to get nasty here do we?



Getting back on topic, it should be clear by now that the bailout plan is working out quite well indeed. Of course, this depends on HOW you believe it was intended to work, and for whom it was intended to work in favor of
Oh, and the troops that recently came back from Iraq that are being put on HOME duty, in case of "natural OR man-made disaster", hmmmm..... Nah, couldn't be.

[adventurepants_]

what does any of that have to do with your original spiel about your traffic fine? what have YOU done to agitate against the hateful, watchful eye of the toll road nexus of the Illuminati? It seems to me you didnt care that much about the watchful eye of the toll roads until you got a fine.

By your very words, youre not interested in revolutionising society, you cant wait for it to collapse so you and Deva can feel smug.

Oh and by the way, getting het up about politics topics on an audio forum is every bit as retarded as watching Dancing with the Stars on TV, dont kid yourself.

Whew, for a minute, I thought I was sitting atop the intellectual world within this forum, but your words have brought me crashing back to such a harsh reality. Please, do speak more.
I can almost see that slight, innocent twinkle of retardation in your eyes.

Anyways, don't bother with the point. You'll do everything in your means to avoid or attempt to discredit it, rather than offer up any real argument. You're only supporting me, whether you're aware of it or not, and it makes me SO smug!
So we'll just both agree to fuck off, we don't want to get nasty here do we?

actually, i was trying to engage you specifically on the focus of a rant you made. You simply dont want to address that point. So what have you done to stop the encroachment of the government into the private lives of citizens vis a vis automated toll roads? Its On Topic as you brought it up as further evidence of government control that is illustrated to you by the bailout. Youve identified one way that the government is trying to control the little man, and no one else seems to have realised. So Im just wondering what action youve taken against it?

Why would anyone get nasty? This is a comedy themed audio forum. A proper debate would involve pesky things like considered thoughts, references and evidence. We're just shooting the shit here. any idiot can spray whatever they like on the wall, hell they let me in.

OH My God. youre not suggesting the troops are coming home to control the poor mob in the street protesting the bailout are you??? Oh Noes! The mob doesnt know, theyll get massacred. You better tell them quick!!!!

[forge]

This is a comedy themed audio forum.

they should put this at the top of the index page in big letters

[PLB]

This isn't just about the government and big business. It's easy to point fingers at someone else.

It's also about irresponsible borrowing and lending, and people living beyond their means. Without the personal discipline and values to control ourselves, it has been forced upon us.

And when the smoke clears, maybe we'll see past the materialism to what's really important in life.

This is entirely about government and big business. Everything in the US is now owned by groups of corporations owned by groups of larger corporations owned by even larger corporations. These corporations have had enormous power over the last three decades, even more so since Bush II. It is the plague that will destroy the US from within. The wars in the middle east, the drug war, it's all to make money. The insurance industry, the pharma industry, money money money....banks, real estate, mark to market, energy speculating, exploiting natural disasters, privatizing everything they can get their hands on (blackwater anyone..).... They know exactly what they're doing. And they will make even more money out of this coming collapse if they get their way.

some links:

http://www.forbes.com/2006/09/21/americ ... intro.html

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/disp ... ackground/



from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... ted-States:

Top sectors by spending

According to OpenSecrets.org[3] the top sectors and their total spending between 1998 and 2005 are:
Client Total
1 Finance, Insurance & Real Estate $2,116,701,718
2 Health $1,925,092,427
3 Misc Business $1,846,514,960
4 Communications/Electronics $1,740,630,467
5 Energy & Natural Resources $1,395,883,127
6 Transportation $1,155,527,330
7 Ideological/Single-Issue $728,397,857
8 Agribusiness $713,779,422
9 Defense $493,204,322
10 Labor $230,091,831
11 Construction $220,086,196
12 Lawyers & Lobbyists $159,488,042
13 Other $997,587,835

[Landwhale]

actually, i was trying to engage you specifically on the focus of a rant you made. You simply dont want to address that point. So what have you done to stop the encroachment of the government into the private lives of citizens vis a vis automated toll roads? Its On Topic as you brought it up as further evidence of government control that is illustrated to you by the bailout. Youve identified one way that the government is trying to control the little man, and no one else seems to have realised. So Im just wondering what action youve taken against it?

Why would anyone get nasty? This is a comedy themed audio forum. A proper debate would involve pesky things like considered thoughts, references and evidence. We're just shooting the shit here. any idiot can spray whatever they like on the wall, hell they let me in.

OH My God. youre not suggesting the troops are coming home to control the poor mob in the street protesting the bailout are you??? Oh Noes! The mob doesnt know, theyll get massacred. You better tell them quick!!!!

Alright you dumb fuck, let's play.

I guess the jig is up, I haven't done ONE thing yet to fight the power against the ExpressWay Authority, other than my Oh So rebellious running of the tolls. Somehow I doubt that after investing all the money into the technology to run their system, as well as the amount of profit they make from it, that diplomacy will get very far with this organization. I don't know though, maybe I'm going out on a limb here?

So the only REAL way I could potentially fight this particular system would be to physically dismantle it, which, much as I'd LOVE to, is obviously completely unrealistic. If only I could nail that whole omnipresence thing, shucks.

You are well aware of this, as would be almost anyone with a half-functioning mind past the age of 15. You're just trying as usual to avoid debating serious issues and provide a real point of view and/or argument, and.... (as usual) further supporting what I've said about the many other mindless drones who are quick to attempt to discredit anything other than the regurgitated propaghanda they've grown up with and find comfort in.

As far as the fact that we're in an audio forum, why use that as your escape route as soon as a political topic gets "heated" (see also, real discussion/debates start happening, creating a scenario which, *gasp* we might actually learn somethings from each other)? I see this same bullshit everytime from lots of others, "it's an audio forum, take the political talk elsewhere". Why?
Obviously, people want to discuss things with fellow musicians other than how much money they've wasted on gear they don't really need or whether or not something is "analog" enough to produce viable sound.

I love nerdy shop talk and learning more about Ableton as much as the next guy, but off topic subjects seem to keep popping up left and right, why not embrace a potential opportunity to learn something new, or get your own perspective shaken up a bit?

Should I just stay preaching to the choir in some esoteric political forum, so I don't stray from a comfort zone? What the hell would be the point?
What is the problem with conversing and debating with people whom you might not otherwise be exposed to, particularly those from around the globe with vastly different life experiences and therefore perspectives?
Granted, the members here on the Ableton forum an might not exactly be a random slice of the American public, but does that mean we have no opinions or perspectives?

Pants, your troops comment was weak, even for you. Step it up a little, would ya?
Of course the troops are not hear for the bailout protests, that would be ridiculous. And again, you don't REALLY think that's what I'm suggesting, you just can't resist that urge to spin!
I forgive you, it's the way mommy media raised you.

The troops are on hold for when the financial system completely collapses and the people begin to get out of hand.
Oh wait, did I say people, I meant domestic terrorists.
The soldiers are fully brain-washed, fully trained murderers back from Iraq, on standby in case of "natural or man-made disaster" (see also financial collapse).
They're in Georgia.
IF, and of course this a big one, the order is given to them to "shoot to kill" domestic terrorists, looters, and the like, no joke, you'd better watch your sorry ass. Perhaps ONLY then will it cross many a feeble mind that some people saw it coming, and *gasp*, they were trying to help you by warning you.

By now I'm sure I've lost what little credibility I had with most people on this forum, which is fine with me.
If that's the case, just keep dreaming. Give yourself a chuckle, conjure up this image. Picture me with my tinfoil hat, a "GO ORGANIC" organically grown cotton t-shirt and matching hemp khakis, blasting PHISH out of my VW van whilst plowing through toll booths like a bat out of hell. Even I hate that fucking guy.

[Machinesworking]

If your goal is to fight the man, more power to you and I wish you the best of luck

Jesus, I wish more people on the left had that kind of attitude rather that constant put downs and derriding of anybody further left than them.

It neither a left or right thing to "Fight the man".
Its an anti establishment thing.

True, or an anti authoritarian thing. It just gets associated with the right more often because unfortunately libertarians and other anti authoritarian anti big government, pro commerce people are rare compared to heavy authoritarian pro capitalism people.

Kinda-sorta related.. I've always considered this to be one of the great ironies of the white supremacist movements fixation on the NAZI's. They seem to pass by the part where the NAZI's where socialists.. instead they consider them selves to be on the far right...

Hey just to be clear on this, the nazis were most definitely a far right movement, they didn't start off entirely that way, they were a right wing extremist nationalist movement with some socialist ideals, which when Hitler got into power he immediately got rid of, after securing the backing of the wealthy industrialists.
Remember the famous quote by Mussolini “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”. Doesn't at all sound like anything near the left does it? The only socialist part of fascism seemed to be the amount of cooperation between state and corporations. Basically instead of lobbyists lending private jets to senators, the CEOs would actually make deals with Hitler directly.
Big on WWII history, and one of the many reasons I think Godwins Law is fucking stupid.

[deva]

Alright you dumb fuck, let's play.

I guess the jig is up, I haven't done ONE thing yet to fight the power against the ExpressWay Authority, other than my Oh So rebellious running of the tolls. Somehow I doubt that after investing all the money into the technology to run their system, as well as the amount of profit they make from it, that diplomacy will get very far with this organization. I don't know though, maybe I'm going out on a limb here?

So the only REAL way I could potentially fight this particular system would be to physically dismantle it, which, much as I'd LOVE to, is obviously completely unrealistic. If only I could nail that whole omnipresence thing, shucks.

His argument is manipulative and not sincere.

Lots of people have been working to effect change. Many of them face severe state repression. One thing I have learned well out in the streets, it does not matter whether you act in a 'legal' manner or an 'illegal' manner. The only measure of how much state repression you face is whether you are effective. Start to be effective, and the FBI will be on your ass. Just like the FBI bombed Judi Bari's car.

I do understand that people who do not undertake such work and see these things firsthand mostly just do not believe it is possible. They still have images of 'land of the free and home of the brave' coloring their perceptions.

There is a deep denial in the US. Many people do not want to face the truth. But spend some years doing serious social and environmental justice work and the truth gets rubbed in your face as the pepper spray is burning in your eyes.

[deva]

Here is a good article for anyone interested

We're on "the Edge of the Abyss"
By Mike Whitney
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e20954.htm

this one too

Get Your Dollars Out Now! FAST!!!
By Adrian Salbuchi
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e20939.htm

[deva]

Kunstler is also a good read...

Clusterfuck Nation
http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/

[Emissary]

Alright you dumb fuck, let's play.

I guess the jig is up, I haven't done ONE thing yet to fight the power against the ExpressWay Authority, other than my Oh So rebellious running of the tolls. Somehow I doubt that after investing all the money into the technology to run their system, as well as the amount of profit they make from it, that diplomacy will get very far with this organization. I don't know though, maybe I'm going out on a limb here?

So the only REAL way I could potentially fight this particular system would be to physically dismantle it, which, much as I'd LOVE to, is obviously completely unrealistic. If only I could nail that whole omnipresence thing, shucks.

His argument is manipulative and not sincere.

Lots of people have been working to effect change. Many of them face severe state repression. One thing I have learned well out in the streets, it does not matter whether you act in a 'legal' manner or an 'illegal' manner. The only measure of how much state repression you face is whether you are effective. Start to be effective, and the FBI will be on your ass. Just like the FBI bombed Judi Bari's car.

I do understand that people who do not undertake such work and see these things firsthand mostly just do not believe it is possible. They still have images of 'land of the free and home of the brave' coloring their perceptions.

There is a deep denial in the US. Many people do not want to face the truth. But spend some years doing serious social and environmental justice work and the truth gets rubbed in your face as the pepper spray is burning in your eyes.

I think the problem with standing up to the system is the fact that i would see no point in getting hurt/arrested/killed for a bunch of self obsessed people who think your the enemy anyway. I have no wish to stand up against this tyrannical system, instead i choose to live outside it as much as possible. if they day comes when they want to insert and chip in me i will disappear off the radar and live in my yurt.

A Revolution doesn't come until there is a mass wakeup where people start questioning what is going on and listening to the fringe/conspiracy theorists. This is unlikely to happen in our society as our owners know this all to well. They lead us down a path through incrementalism trying to wake up as few as people as possible. That is why although we are going to go through a bad recession , it will only be as bad as they think we can take. no storm troopers on the streets and no mass die off of population. It will be controlled and incremental, and thats why conspiracy theorists will never have any proof for their theorys.

[adventurepants_]

actually, i was trying to engage you specifically on the focus of a rant you made. You simply dont want to address that point. So what have you done to stop the encroachment of the government into the private lives of citizens vis a vis automated toll roads? Its On Topic as you brought it up as further evidence of government control that is illustrated to you by the bailout. Youve identified one way that the government is trying to control the little man, and no one else seems to have realised. So Im just wondering what action youve taken against it?

Why would anyone get nasty? This is a comedy themed audio forum. A proper debate would involve pesky things like considered thoughts, references and evidence. We're just shooting the shit here. any idiot can spray whatever they like on the wall, hell they let me in.

OH My God. youre not suggesting the troops are coming home to control the poor mob in the street protesting the bailout are you??? Oh Noes! The mob doesnt know, theyll get massacred. You better tell them quick!!!!

Alright you dumb fuck, let's play.

I guess the jig is up, I haven't done ONE thing yet to fight the power against the ExpressWay Authority, other than my Oh So rebellious running of the tolls. Somehow I doubt that after investing all the money into the technology to run their system, as well as the amount of profit they make from it, that diplomacy will get very far with this organization. I don't know though, maybe I'm going out on a limb here?

So the only REAL way I could potentially fight this particular system would be to physically dismantle it, which, much as I'd LOVE to, is obviously completely unrealistic. If only I could nail that whole omnipresence thing, shucks.

You are well aware of this, as would be almost anyone with a half-functioning mind past the age of 15. You're just trying as usual to avoid debating serious issues and provide a real point of view and/or argument, and.... (as usual) further supporting what I've said about the many other mindless drones who are quick to attempt to discredit anything other than the regurgitated propaghanda they've grown up with and find comfort in.

As far as the fact that we're in an audio forum, why use that as your escape route as soon as a political topic gets "heated" (see also, real discussion/debates start happening, creating a scenario which, *gasp* we might actually learn somethings from each other)? I see this same bullshit everytime from lots of others, "it's an audio forum, take the political talk elsewhere". Why?
Obviously, people want to discuss things with fellow musicians other than how much money they've wasted on gear they don't really need or whether or not something is "analog" enough to produce viable sound.

I love nerdy shop talk and learning more about Ableton as much as the next guy, but off topic subjects seem to keep popping up left and right, why not embrace a potential opportunity to learn something new, or get your own perspective shaken up a bit?

Should I just stay preaching to the choir in some esoteric political forum, so I don't stray from a comfort zone? What the hell would be the point?
What is the problem with conversing and debating with people whom you might not otherwise be exposed to, particularly those from around the globe with vastly different life experiences and therefore perspectives?
Granted, the members here on the Ableton forum an might not exactly be a random slice of the American public, but does that mean we have no opinions or perspectives?

Pants, your troops comment was weak, even for you. Step it up a little, would ya?
Of course the troops are not hear for the bailout protests, that would be ridiculous. And again, you don't REALLY think that's what I'm suggesting, you just can't resist that urge to spin!
I forgive you, it's the way mommy media raised you.

The troops are on hold for when the financial system completely collapses and the people begin to get out of hand.
Oh wait, did I say people, I meant domestic terrorists.
The soldiers are fully brain-washed, fully trained murderers back from Iraq, on standby in case of "natural or man-made disaster" (see also financial collapse).
They're in Georgia.
IF, and of course this a big one, the order is given to them to "shoot to kill" domestic terrorists, looters, and the like, no joke, you'd better watch your sorry ass. Perhaps ONLY then will it cross many a feeble mind that some people saw it coming, and *gasp*, they were trying to help you by warning you.

By now I'm sure I've lost what little credibility I had with most people on this forum, which is fine with me.
If that's the case, just keep dreaming. Give yourself a chuckle, conjure up this image. Picture me with my tinfoil hat, a "GO ORGANIC" organically grown cotton t-shirt and matching hemp khakis, blasting PHISH out of my VW van whilst plowing through toll booths like a bat out of hell. Even I hate that fucking guy.

actually i think youre probably a pretty smart guy/girl whos obviously passionate about what you see going on around you. I agree with some of what youre saying, I just wanted to see if you had any substance to your opinions or if youre just trolling and regurgitating websites.

theres a lot you could do to peacefully fight things like toll roads in your community. part of how the bad guys win is by making the good guys feel like its too hard.


I didnt spin your comment about the troops, I did the opposite and said it out loud. You wanted to suggest that the troops might have been sent home for domestic reasons, but you didnt want to go out on a limb and actually say it. If you want to be provocative, then have the balls to provoke!

So far you and Deva have accused me of manipulating you, trying to discredit you and spinning what you say. Yet youve not offered any explanation of how Ive done this, and filled that void with personal insults. Then PLB comes in and drops some science.

The government is hopelessly corrupt yes, but its prob not the Big Brother you think it is. Its a bunch of slightly evolved protozoa all trying to get a bigger piece of the pie, they could give a fuck about controlling what you think as long as you buy the shit made by the people lobbying them.

Pres Eisenhower made the connection between government, the military and big business in his farewell address in 1961 on the radio to the whole nation. Do you think that all of this is new, and unknown?

[adventurepants_]

Alright you dumb fuck, let's play.

I guess the jig is up, I haven't done ONE thing yet to fight the power against the ExpressWay Authority, other than my Oh So rebellious running of the tolls. Somehow I doubt that after investing all the money into the technology to run their system, as well as the amount of profit they make from it, that diplomacy will get very far with this organization. I don't know though, maybe I'm going out on a limb here?

So the only REAL way I could potentially fight this particular system would be to physically dismantle it, which, much as I'd LOVE to, is obviously completely unrealistic. If only I could nail that whole omnipresence thing, shucks.

His argument is manipulative and not sincere.

Lots of people have been working to effect change. Many of them face severe state repression. One thing I have learned well out in the streets, it does not matter whether you act in a 'legal' manner or an 'illegal' manner. The only measure of how much state repression you face is whether you are effective. Start to be effective, and the FBI will be on your ass. Just like the FBI bombed Judi Bari's car.

I do understand that people who do not undertake such work and see these things firsthand mostly just do not believe it is possible. They still have images of 'land of the free and home of the brave' coloring their perceptions.

There is a deep denial in the US. Many people do not want to face the truth. But spend some years doing serious social and environmental justice work and the truth gets rubbed in your face as the pepper spray is burning in your eyes.

I think the problem with standing up to the system is the fact that i would see no point in getting hurt/arrested/killed for a bunch of self obsessed people who think your the enemy anyway. I have no wish to stand up against this tyrannical system, instead i choose to live outside it as much as possible. if they day comes when they want to insert and chip in me i will disappear off the radar and live in my yurt.

A Revolution doesn't come until there is a mass wakeup where people start questioning what is going on and listening to the fringe/conspiracy theorists. This is unlikely to happen in our society as our owners know this all to well. They lead us down a path through incrementalism trying to wake up as few as people as possible. That is why although we are going to go through a bad recession , it will only be as bad as they think we can take. no storm troopers on the streets and no mass die off of population. It will be controlled and incremental, and thats why conspiracy theorists will never have any proof for their theorys.

so please correct me if Ive got this wrong. Youre saying you are happy to take the fruits of a technocratic but corrupt democracy, but youre not interested in contributing to its health? Self Interest is how we got into this mess.

[Emissary]

His argument is manipulative and not sincere.

Lots of people have been working to effect change. Many of them face severe state repression. One thing I have learned well out in the streets, it does not matter whether you act in a 'legal' manner or an 'illegal' manner. The only measure of how much state repression you face is whether you are effective. Start to be effective, and the FBI will be on your ass. Just like the FBI bombed Judi Bari's car.

I do understand that people who do not undertake such work and see these things firsthand mostly just do not believe it is possible. They still have images of 'land of the free and home of the brave' coloring their perceptions.

There is a deep denial in the US. Many people do not want to face the truth. But spend some years doing serious social and environmental justice work and the truth gets rubbed in your face as the pepper spray is burning in your eyes.

I think the problem with standing up to the system is the fact that i would see no point in getting hurt/arrested/killed for a bunch of self obsessed people who think your the enemy anyway. I have no wish to stand up against this tyrannical system, instead i choose to live outside it as much as possible. if they day comes when they want to insert and chip in me i will disappear off the radar and live in my yurt.

A Revolution doesn't come until there is a mass wakeup where people start questioning what is going on and listening to the fringe/conspiracy theorists. This is unlikely to happen in our society as our owners know this all to well. They lead us down a path through incrementalism trying to wake up as few as people as possible. That is why although we are going to go through a bad recession , it will only be as bad as they think we can take. no storm troopers on the streets and no mass die off of population. It will be controlled and incremental, and thats why conspiracy theorists will never have any proof for their theorys.

so please correct me if Ive got this wrong. Youre saying you are happy to take the fruits of a technocratic but corrupt democracy, but youre not interested in contributing to its health? Self Interest is how we got into this mess.

pretty much . but then i am not some chaser of the truth and freedom. I know the system is fucked, and i would gladly help out if a new uncorrupt system were to come along. But as i said before, this would only happen after a planetary revolution anyway (of which i would be part) but i have better things to do with my life than convince closed minded yoofs and chavs that their vauxhall corsas are not the path to true enlightenment. i would like to see the world change but i have no interest in changing it myself. fuck it.