Complex problem- simple answer?

iridite · Post by **iridite** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:55 pm

I'm going a bit mad here but I'm sure there's a simple solution!

Live 6.0.10 on a Dual 1.8 Ghz G5 running 10.4.10. Audio interface is the Mackie Onyx 1640 with Firewire Board and Midi is through a MOTU Express XT USB.

Buffer size is 256 Samples and I've used the Driver Error Compensations test (shows up at a 1ms difference and is compensated for in the Preferences).

If I set up a Midi track and programe a simple 4 to the floor bass drum on an external Midi instrument (in this case a JV 2080) it plays fine and is in perfect sync with anything in side of Live- Audio Loops, the metronome, you name it, it sounds fine.

If I then record the output from the 2080 into a new audio track in Live there is a (aprox) 24 ms gap at the beginning of the track- this value changes if I alter the Buffer size so the two things are obviously related.

I just can't understand it though- I thought that Live compensated for any delays caused by the Audio interface you use and would start the new Audio Loop I've created at the correct point. Do I have to manually do this for every single part I record into Live? Am I missing something incredibly obvious and being a plank?

cheers for any help

Jason

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:03 pm

at the bottom of the recorded audio track set the track delay to -24mS.

midi is pretty much instant from one device to another, audio is much much more data and (with today's hardware) will always have a delay when it passes through a piece of audio gear.

Live can't really compensate for delays automatically because sound cards lie about their latency, that's the nature of the beast.

iridite · Post by **iridite** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:13 pm

Hi thanks for the quick answer- I have experimented with the track delay settings in the past- it's just that I thought the Driver Error Compensation test gave Live a more accurate picture of the soundcard's real world latency figures and allowed it to compensate in turn?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:20 pm

to be honest I've never used the driver error compensation, I have heard time and again that DAWs can't predict the delay so I do it by hand by observation.

iridite · Post by **iridite** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:26 pm

Thanks again for your response- does anyone have any more in depth info about what is going on here?

What really confuses me is the the Midi Instrument (the bass drum from the 2080) and the Metronome (an Audio signal playing through the soundcard) are in perfect sync- it's only when I record the external instrument INTO Live that the problem starts.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:34 pm

like I said, the audio going into Live is delayed by your sound card because the card has to process the data, even if it's just passing the audio through there's a delay.

midi is very very very little data and a separate path through your audio card.

mike holiday · Post by **mike holiday** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:52 pm

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=buffer

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=buffer

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:07 am

Delay compensation, as in the setting in the Options menu, is a completely separate issue from the Driver delay compensation, as in the Lesson you mentioned.

The latter is for dealing with inaccuracies in what the driver reports as the latency and the actual latency

So question #1 is do you have delay compensation checked in the options menu?

Another question could be, what is the monitor status of the track in question?

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:11 am

Specifically, you should monitor the outboard gear outside of live, and keep live's monitor OFF for that track

So either monitor on the roland (or external mixer), or at your soundcard input.. not through the Live track.

Or, if that's not possible, you may need two tracks, one to record (set to OFF) and one to listen (set to Auto/On)

edit: There is a thread which I will not link to... it is "the thread which must not be named"

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:14 am

theres also an adjustment in the midi settings for midi delay. if you set the delay based only on the all this and it turns out the audio delay is separate and different to the midi delay you could end up not far from where you started.

iridite · Post by **iridite** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:35 am

Hi again- thanks for the info people:

Mike- your 1st link relates to a post which basically describes the Driver Error Compensation situation- I've done this a few times and I get around 1ms difference which I have entered in to the relevant box in the Preferences.

I can use the channel Track Delay but I quite often record 16 live channels into Live when jamming on hardware instruments so I have to do this for every track- not ideal really.

Longjohns- I've got Delay Compensation ticked in options although I believe this is mainly to do with adjusting internal timing differences caused by different VST and AU plug in's and processors you might apply after recording- anyone know this for sure? Monitoring is set to Off for the relevant channel as I monitor straight from my mixing desk. It's only the recorded audio I'm concerned with- I'm trying to understand why I have a fixed gap at the beginning of each recorded Audio part.

Clearscreen- the Midi Delay in the Preferences relates to Midi Clock as far as I can see and I'm not using it at the moment, just triggering notes from an eternal synth module.

iridite · Post by **iridite** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:33 pm

Hi everyone- does anyone have more info for me on this?

cheers

Jason

mike holiday · Post by **mike holiday** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:23 pm

iridite wrote: Mike- your 1st link relates to a post which basically describes the Driver Error Compensation situation- I've done this a few times and I get around 1ms difference which I have entered in to the relevant box in the Preferences.

You need to have monitor mode OFF on the track you are recording onto.

so if you are playing through an external mixer this works...
this is why this way works with large buffers.. you record with monitor off... and when you play back what you just recorded it will be in time

otherwise its looking like the external instrument plug in live 7 should help you..

i don't use outboard gear much anymore..only outboard effects...2 years ago it was all i used

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:11 am

iridite wrote:Clearscreen- the Midi Delay in the Preferences relates to Midi Clock as far as I can see and I'm not using it at the moment, just triggering notes from an eternal synth module.

sorry about that, you are completely correct... DOH!!

iridite · Post by **iridite** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:04 am

Hi Mike- yes, you are right, I record with the Monitor switch set to "Off" as I am monitoring the direct sound of the 2080 Bass Drum through the mixing desk- it's only once it's been recorded into Live as an Audio Part that I'm having problems.

Is there anyone else who can explain this to me a little more?

cheers

Jason