Logic Studio or Live Suite?

lis102trants · Post by **lis102trants** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:55 pm

I was determined to pick up Logic 8 at $500, since Ableton has been my only DAW (Tracktion and Garageband just doesn't cut it), but then I saw that Live 7 is just around the corner, and with the Live Suite at whats close to $500. Which option would be better? Live's new integrated instruments Analog, Tension and Electric look pretty nice, not to mention I'll also pick up Operator and Sampler (which I don't have yet) and the handful of other new knacks like the drum machine, or the tons of new effects and instruments of Logic 8? I'm definitely going to upgrade to Live 7 for $100 even if I get Logic, but that suite pack is very tempting.. Thoughts on comparing the two sets of instruments? i.e. EXS24, Sculpture, Ultrabeat, Vintage Instruments vs. Analog, Tension, Electric, Operator, Sampler

downfader · Post by **downfader** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:21 pm

If you do a LOT of midi work, need notation, etc then Logic is the one to get. No reason why you shouldnt use both though if you can afford them.

corygilbert · Post by **corygilbert** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:29 pm

1. what kind of music do you make?
2. How do you like to work, ie: quick and dirty, or with a lot of "get this part right, then move on" kinda thought? (I'm not saying one is better or worse for this, but I do have an opinion.)
3. What sort of DaW, etc. are you using now? (it matters what type of system you're coming from.)
4. What other soft synths do you own? There might be some redundancy in the included instruments/ effects between these two suites, and if you own some other stuff that's good in the sounds/ instrument area like reaktor, or if you own more recording/ channel strip type plugs like ozone or the waves stuff. It might influence your decision, IMO.

Both are great suites of gear, Obviously some of us here have a preference, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who could help with some insight into the strengths and weaknesses of both as compared.
Give some more info as to what you'd like to achieve, and I'm sure some more folks will chime in with some opinions.

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:42 pm

corygilbert wrote:1. what kind of music do you make?
2. How do you like to work, ie: quick and dirty, or with a lot of "get this part right, then move on" kinda thought? (I'm not saying one is better or worse for this, but I do have an opinion.)
3. What sort of DaW, etc. are you using now? (it matters what type of system you're coming from.)
4. What other soft synths do you own? There might be some redundancy in the included instruments/ effects between these two suites, and if you own some other stuff that's good in the sounds/ instrument area like reaktor, or if you own more recording/ channel strip type plugs like ozone or the waves stuff. It might influence your decision, IMO.

Both are great suites of gear, Obviously some of us here have a preference, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who could help with some insight into the strengths and weaknesses of both as compared.
Give some more info as to what you'd like to achieve, and I'm sure some more folks will chime in with some opinions.

+1

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:45 pm

If you're happy with Live 6, then there's no real need to look at other DAWs IMO. Now if there's things you think a different app would do better, that's a different story. Logic and Live are two very different apps....

Digi V · Post by **Digi V** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:38 pm

i've been a live user since ableton live 4, but i gotta say now i'm totally for logic pro 8.

logic pro 8 is just a freaking monster for the price. you get so many top notch things that i'm sorry to say nothing else beats it. if you can afford both and have the time to use both then sure.

for now i'm totally for logic 8 and getting my head completely around it.

its a freaking beast.

lis102trants · Post by **lis102trants** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:02 am

Corygilbert, those are some great questions I should have answered before I went into my question. Let me do that now-
1. My main influences are Air, Royksopp, and BT (This Binary Universe), so I really like making music along those lines. I also like trance (Ferry Corsten, Tiesto, Paul Van Dyk) and some drum n bass (anything with a piano in it is just swell)
2. Well, I'm mainly a "get this part right, then move on" kind of guy, but I also utilize the quick and dirty method, which is why the other half of my chunk of change is going to an M-Audio Microtrack or Edirol R-09.
3. I only use Ableton as my DAW. I used to use Acid and FL, but now I'm on an Apple, and I just felt like Garageband and Traction LE was too bare for my needs.
4. I own Absynth, Massive, Akoustic, Battery, and Novation Bass Station. l'm not too satisfied with my selection though...

Downfader, I do do a lot of midi work, and coming from a DAW like Fruityloops, Ableton really bogs me down. The midi implementation is pretty fiddly. Good point there.

BTW I love the sound of the Juno-D and JP-8000, watching youtube videos of users tweaking their keyboards and demoing the Juno-D at Guitar Center. I just love the ease and sound of the Juno. Would Logic or Ableton's suite have any instruments comparable to these synths?

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:14 am

Live all the way, don't become a drone to Apple. (even if it is good software at a good price, once they've hooked you in it'll be 5 years for the next upgrade and back to 1000 dollars once they've seen off Digital Performer and Cubase)

steff3 · Post by **steff3** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:49 am

[quote="leedsquietman"]Live all the way, don't become a drone to Apple. (even if it is good software at a good price, once they've hooked you in it'll be 5 years for the next upgrade and back to 1000 dollars once they've seen off Digital Performer and Cubase)[/quote]

Any real arguments for those claims?

did Final Cut studio - which has obviously no competitors on Mac - go up or was not further developed. When took a Logic update 5 years to come out last time? And for Cubase - I think Steinberg is taking care that this app is no considered attractive in the Mac market anyways, Apple really does not have to waste any time on that .....

Any facts or only resentiments?

best

Homebelly · Post by **Homebelly** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:03 am

lis102trants wrote: 4. I own Absynth, Massive, Akoustic, Battery, and Novation Bass Station. l'm not too satisfied with my selection though...

Downfader, I do do a lot of midi work, and coming from a DAW like Fruityloops, Ableton really bogs me down. The midi implementation is pretty fiddly. Good point there.

BTW I love the sound of the Juno-D and JP-8000, watching youtube videos of users tweaking their keyboards and demoing the Juno-D at Guitar Center. I just love the ease and sound of the Juno. Would Logic or Ableton's suite have any instruments comparable to these synths?

Maybe you could check out Logic Express 8.
It is exactly the same application as the studio version,, but with a couple of instruments and plugins missing and a couple of features tied to post production such as surround for example,,,

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:09 am

It just took Apple 3 years to make an update for Logic when they had competition. Without it, one can only imagine how long they'll take.

They have competition from Adobe and Avid for Final Cut don't they? Vaguely...

Don't get me wrong - I'm a Cubase user and I hate Steinberg, I think they should stop developing it for Mac, they are behind and it takes away from the PC side of things. Cubase runs so much better on PC. Plus Steinberg are not likely to be able to price match Logic. Pity really, Cubase is still an awesome sequencer and only needs a couple of feature implementations to be right back in the game.

That would only leave MOTU and Poor Tools as alternatives and competition is what the market thrives on... Apple have criticized Microsoft for years about being a big corporate dinosaur that stifles competition, but really they just envy for that profit and attention.

Resentment - maybe a little, fact - we shall wait and see but I would bet money that there will be Cubase for Mac within 18 months to 2 years and unless MOTU can release an update for DP and price it at less than $499, they will be out of the picture too within 2-3 years.

I would then be willing to bet my life that the price of Logic will go up and that updates will happen when it's convenient for Apple, not when it's convenient for the consumer.

Live is cross platform and still a unique software. Worthy of a lot of praise IMHO.

steff3 · Post by **steff3** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:45 am

[quote="leedsquietman"]
They have competition from Adobe and Avid for Final Cut don't they? Vaguely...
[/quote]
Well, I think Premiere is no longer offered for Mac (the fact that I am even not sure points out what position Adobe has in the Mac video software market - non).
For Avid there is also no real competitive system - there is a software for DV cutting and the other stuff is much higher priced.

[quote="leedsquietman"]
Don't get me wrong - I'm a Cubase user and I hate Steinberg, I think they should stop developing it for Mac, they are behind and it takes away from the PC side of things. Cubase runs so much better on PC.
[/quote]
I was a Cubase user for over 10 years and I am over it. Concerning the PC side - well, I also thought so, but PC users tell me that Cubase for PC is suffering from equivalent short-comings compared to competition as Cubase Mac.
I think they have some really nice concepts at Steinberg. But for some reason (financial, manpower, who knows) they are not able to bring those concepts into an implementation that is halfway usable. Ok, I think all software is buggy, for the user it is just important with what bugs s/he can live. So, maybe people feel different about that but then the opinion about Cubase that is spread over the net is not so different from mine.

[quote="leedsquietman"]
Plus Steinberg are not likely to be able to price match Logic. Pity really, Cubase is still an awesome sequencer and only needs a couple of feature implementations to be right back in the game.
[/quote]
Well, I think a lot of concepts in Cubase are great. My problems somehow start with the interface which is too overbloated/PCish, the ignorance of OSX features (like IAC) etc. If they can or cannot price Cubase and if the need or need not, well, .....

[quote="leedsquietman"]
That would only leave MOTU and Poor Tools as alternatives and competition is what the market thrives on... Apple have criticized Microsoft for years about being a big corporate dinosaur that stifles competition, but really they just envy for that profit and attention.
[/quote]
Well, I agree with you there partly. Nevertheless Logic 8 seems a good, remarkably stable (I mean, sure, there are bugs, but sadly we came to the point where a halfway stable release can be seen as a positive thing ... jezzz, this is sad ...) Personally, I still think Cubase editing concept (inline midi editing) is far superiorut well, I worked with SX3 and with DP4 and Logic and think the other two are more suited for my needs and workflow. SX3 worked to unreliably for me.

[quote="leedsquietman"]
Resentment - maybe a little, fact - we shall wait and see but I would bet money that there will be Cubase for Mac within 18 months to 2 years and unless MOTU can release an update for DP and price it at less than $499, they will be out of the picture too within 2-3 years.
[/quote]
Well, MOTU is still better than Logic in some regards - MIDI editing, mixing surround and score for picture. And they are not trashing and insulting their user base on every opportunity they can see (as Steinberg does). I think there are quite some reknown DP-users that stand behind the software - as long as this is the case, this is really a great potential for MOTU.
The discussion was there already in 2002 when Apple bought Logic and shortly after that Pinnacle took over Steinberg. But according to MOTU this turned out to push DP sales.

[quote="leedsquietman"]
I would then be willing to bet my life that the price of Logic will go up and that updates will happen when it's convenient for Apple, not when it's convenient for the consumer.
[/quote]
I do not think so
1) The code for Logic Studio is used in Garageband, Final Cut Studio (STP, Compressor), content from Logic Studio is further sold with every Mac. So I think it is not to unlikely that the price of Logic Studio is accressive but not below calculation (not a business man so do not know the actual terms for that).
2) Final Cut Studio - in my opinion not really facing to much competition on Mac - did also not go up. All prices went down for media production tools. For 3D software by 75-90% (!), in video and audio is next. Cubase is more expensive than 10 years ago - it will go down.
3) If Apple cannot deliver competitive software on Mac people go PC or Linux. of course they have a margin on Mac, but now that people can run Windows on Mac natively, why use a Mac software .....

And, well, updates happen when it is convenient for Apple - like it is the same for Steinberg (well, their it would be update do not happen if it is convenient for Steinberg, which is most often the case - 3.12) or Ableton. And as Updates bring money, they are convenient. Logic Studio 8 is also a great update because one can see that they went over stuff again, refined implementations, workflow etc. Not like Steinberg just throwing away old code and plugins for convenience and for the price of backward compatibility.

[quote="leedsquietman"]
Live is cross platform and still a unique software. Worthy of a lot of praise IMHO.[/quote]
Live is a great product - I do not like more and more things about it (as I prefer tools that allow for deep implementations and not a 'DVJing in a box', but .... Cross-platform is more expensive - for me, sorry, I do not care. Stuff has to work and integrate in my tool set and not anywhere else. (The lack of AU support in CUbase and therefore the unability to exchange PluginPresets with other programs was one reason why Cubase was used less and less)
If people are paying for that ok, I would not. So it is the uniqueness of Live that make it interesting for me. And with Ableton's feature-blurring policy Live gets less and less interesting for me.

I do not think that your claims about update cycle or pricing is anything else than concern about competition. I like and welcome competition - better products for all of use - no matter if we use Live, Logic or Cubase.

best

steff3 · Post by **steff3** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:48 am

[quote="leedsquietman"]It just took Apple 3 years to make an update for Logic when they had competition. Without it, one can only imagine how long they'll take.
[/quote]

one more thing

I think Cubase SX3 to Cubase 4 update took about two years - but Cubase 4 is still - one year after release and 3 years after release of SX3 - well, not at the point a reasonable release should be. So, for my understanding the effect is that Logic 7's successor is in a better state than Cubase SX3 successor - and SX3 and Logic Pro 7 were both released in 2004.

best

Digi V · Post by **Digi V** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:13 am

lets not forget that now logic is half the price it once was! for 500 bucks you can not beat it, no matter what way you slice it.

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:35 am

I would say to the OP, based on your description of your needs and the way you work that Logic would be the best choice for you out of the two options you've listed.