Un convinced by ableton for DJ sets , help please

--m-- · Post by **--m--** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:24 am

hambone1 wrote:You're right. If all you want to do is play somebody else's tracks, Live probably isn't the best application for you.

To get the most out of Live, there is some work involved, too.

errrr, if that was referring to my post, you do realize that your comment has nothing to do with what i just said?

its just prepping something with the time and forethought required to make ableton really useful beyond anything a dj can normally do anyway, would cut severely into the off the wall experimentation i like to do with djing.

djing for me goes far far beyond playing someone else's tunes, but i can see how if that was your view of djing, then ableton would be the right app for you in a live scenario.

convert · Post by **convert** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:11 am

my issue is that im only using ableton for sequencing DJ sets(not Live)

So i worked out a set on a pair of CD decks which I wanted to record.
I thought Id try use live since I could had a few tricks in their + it nice to control the fades between tracks.

Whats happened is i've spent hours warping tracks and when i've putting the set together the mixes dont sound as tight as they did when worked out the set on the CD decks.

Im looping sections of the tracks against a midi kick drum and metronome, adjusting and when its tight i use a warp from here marker.
Then move on to the say next eight bars of the track and do the same if its tight or i adjust it first if not.

Im finding that im having use loads of markers to get it right,
If warp 8 bars at the begining of a track and its tight, move on to the next 8 bars etc how much more do i have to do? if im adjusting every 8 or 16 bars it takes ages to do one track.

Reader other users comments its suggested that 10 marks should be enough!

Im using legitimate downloads 320K mp3 converted to wav.
I load all my MP3 into sound forge, adjust levels etc and save as wav.

So i dont know how to make it easier or quicker so I can get on with the creative side of the software.

I want to get this nailed so I can see the real benefits of live but i need my mixes to sound tight.

If anyone has experienced the same but on top if it now please let me know what you did.

Adjusting and marking very 16 bars is time consuming an frustrating

DanielHoerr · Post by **DanielHoerr** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:27 am

I just did a test, because this whole thread was really confusing me...

I took an unwarped house tune and placed it in an audio track.
Live went through it's analyzation.
I placed 1.1.1
"Warp from here"
Checked and placed 6 additional markers, and I'm PICKY about my alignment.
Tested with several loop triggers.

45 seconds from drag-n-drop of the file into Live until I started this reply.

And I'm not even close to a pro with warping, in fact I'm still learning.

Maybe you should check out any of the many great warping tutorials available online? Perhaps your method is (sounds like) overkill, or your using a technique that's not ideal. I know I went through several different tutorials before I found what works best for me.

Now, like has been mentioned, if I'm using a vinyl rip, it's more time consuming.

Lateral · Post by **Lateral** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:59 am

Well, this topic grew beyond expectation.
This is how I do it: I place 1.1.1 on first kick. I zoom it to maximum, to ensure that is very precise. Most of DJ's can hear difference between 2 kicks (from different songs) if they are differing about 3 ms. When you zoom your track to max you can change position of a marker within app 0,2 ms. Accurate enough?
Then I go to position 9.1.1 and do the same. After that I check positions 17.1.1, 33.1.1, and if it is all good, I warp last few bars of a song, and THAT'S IT! If not, I continue.
Now, maybe your track is starting without kicks, with pads etc... Then you have to listen. In these cases I usualy turn the metronome on. Sometimes I'm positioning 1.1.1, and looking how 17.1.1 or 33.1.1 will do. In these cases it takes time. BUT, it's not so easy if you want to mix this track on CD player also, right? However, you can simply warp this song from first kick (you will be still able to start that song BEFORE 1.1.1, by clicking certain position on a clip).
Sometimes I do everything by the book, but still have differencies. Then you have to realize that it isn't enough for warping to look good graphicaly. It has to sound good. Different forms of kick, or bass HAVE DIFFERENT look, and they can gain different results in your ears/brain. In these cases I use track delay in ms (on each channel, under volume slider).
If I do all of that, I always have perfect mixes. Always.

convert · Post by **convert** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:17 am

Ok, i warped a track which was easy to do, a few marker at the begining and a couple in the middle.

The differnce is this tack it was a wsimple groove track without many eliments. simple beats..........so more complexed sound..not as easy, not as tight

Lateral · Post by **Lateral** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:24 am

Practise, man. You cannot expect to know warping without practise. One more advice: zoom your kick to max, and place marker at the position where change take place (the best position is ALWAYS where sound line crosses main/middle/zero line - in that way you won't have crackles at the start).

Lateral · Post by **Lateral** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:27 am

I remember that track Holden&Thompson - Come to me was among first tracks I've warped. That song is everything but simple. It took me few days to do it, but I did it, and it worked perfectly.
Practise and listen. Sometimes metronome.

--m-- · Post by **--m--** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:28 pm

convert wrote:my issue is that im only using ableton for sequencing DJ sets(not Live)

So i worked out a set on a pair of CD decks which I wanted to record.
I thought Id try use live since I could had a few tricks in their + it nice to control the fades between tracks.

Whats happened is i've spent hours warping tracks and when i've putting the set together the mixes dont sound as tight as they did when worked out the set on the CD decks.

Im looping sections of the tracks against a midi kick drum and metronome, adjusting and when its tight i use a warp from here marker.
Then move on to the say next eight bars of the track and do the same if its tight or i adjust it first if not.

Im finding that im having use loads of markers to get it right,
If warp 8 bars at the begining of a track and its tight, move on to the next 8 bars etc how much more do i have to do? if im adjusting every 8 or 16 bars it takes ages to do one track.

Reader other users comments its suggested that 10 marks should be enough!

Im using legitimate downloads 320K mp3 converted to wav.
I load all my MP3 into sound forge, adjust levels etc and save as wav.

So i dont know how to make it easier or quicker so I can get on with the creative side of the software.

I want to get this nailed so I can see the real benefits of live but i need my mixes to sound tight.

If anyone has experienced the same but on top if it now please let me know what you did.

Adjusting and marking very 16 bars is time consuming an frustrating

yeah i think that this is precisely what ableton really is not very efficient, or even really good, at doing.

far better to do just do the mix manually and really just have some fun with the djing rather than piece it all together like some puzzle.

snakedogman · Post by **snakedogman** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:06 pm

I've only done 2 mixes with live so far (techno/progressive kind of stuff). I'd say for 95% of the track I only use one marker at 1.1.1. If that's the case I can warp a track in 20 seconds or so.
Sometimes though, even dance tracks are kinda fluctuating in tempo so for the hard ones I do the loop approach and setting markers every 4, 8 or 16 bars. In that case it will maybe take 5 minutes to warp a track.

I don't really see how this works against experimentation while dj-ing. The warping is just prepping, it's just doing the beatmatching bit beforehand, after that you can experiment however much you want with it.

--m-- · Post by **--m--** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:13 pm

snakedogman wrote:I've only done 2 mixes with live so far (techno/progressive kind of stuff). I'd say for 95% of the track I only use one marker at 1.1.1. If that's the case I can warp a track in 20 seconds or so.
Sometimes though, even dance tracks are kinda fluctuating in tempo so for the hard ones I do the loop approach and setting markers every 4, 8 or 16 bars. In that case it will maybe take 5 minutes to warp a track.

I don't really see how this works against experimentation while dj-ing. The warping is just prepping, it's just doing the beatmatching bit beforehand, after that you can experiment however much you want with it.

yeah but if it takes 5 minutes per track and i'm gonna play 100 tracks in a set, sometimes more, then that's a lot of time. supposing you don't ming that tho(and this is something i'd do differently for every set mind you, so i do mind)... you gain nothing over traditional djing.

the part where ableton becomes more useful is where you setup little loops and or small parts or sections of tunes and set up all kinds of crazy fx and shit. and even then, a great deal of what can be accomplished through that can be done with almost no forethought with traditional djing.

imo ableton separates itself and excels beyond what normal djing is capable of, when a great deal of time and thought is given to really creative uses of those samples and setting up racks of stuff to resample and shape the sounds in crazy ways. but to my mind when you've gone through all the trouble to do that(and only if you're willing to do it diff each set) then at what point does the whole djing experience become more about what you've set up prior to the show than the actual show itself?

edit: i should say that i guess overall... the amount of time required to make an ableton set really stand out above a normal dj set seems to have an effect on people who go that route, of playing a pre-recorded set as much as anything. now i know that once set up, it ought to be really flexibile and the performer should be able to do some really cool things on the fly, but i've yet to hear an ableton set that really reflects that. whether that comes down to the program or the user, i don't know; i can only say what i've seen thus far.

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:40 pm

It's not just audio.

Live is incredibly powerful for sequencing, controlling, and performing video and lighting while DJing. The synergistic effect of making all three work together, when done well, is much greater than the sum of the parts. IMO, it's where Live can't be compared to traditional DJ tools. The same clips, scenes, MIDI controls, MIDI effects, Follow Actions, arpeggiator, etc that control audio can control VJ software and DMX lighting, too. The same MIDI knob that does the filter sweep can also pan a laser tunnel across the room, while sweeping a video effect across live camera feed.

I often drop unwarped tracks in, and tap tempo to sync things up. It doesn't have to be totally preplanned.

--m-- · Post by **--m--** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:57 pm

hambone1 wrote:It's not just audio.

Live is incredibly powerful for sequencing, controlling, and performing video and lighting while DJing. The synergistic effect of making all three work together, when done well, is much greater than the sum of the parts. IMO, it's where Live can't be compared to traditional DJ tools. The same clips, scenes, MIDI controls, MIDI effects, Follow Actions, arpeggitor, etc that control audio can control VJ software and DMX lighting, too. The same MIDI knob that does the filter sweep can also pan a laser tunnel across the room, while sweeping a video effect across live camera feed.

I often drop unwarped tracks in, and tap tempo to sync things up. It doesn't have to be totally preplanned.

i had forgotten you can use live for visuals as well.
provided you could interface with the club system, that would be cool, tho something i doubt i'd get much into myself.

scratch_eddie · Post by **scratch_eddie** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:34 am

I like to think of warping as equivalent to something like the amount of time that it takes to learn a new tune on a piece of vinyl. As a DJ you can't expect a quick fix all the time... Everyone needs to stop being so MTV generation and get on the long game. If you take your time getting the warp markers right (it could take a while or be super quick depending on your experience and the rhythmical tightness of the file in question) then it will pay off when you come to mix or manipulate the files. I spend ages getting everything just right, so that when I come to use the files everything works exactly as I hope it will.

On a different note, does anyone else use ableton in conjunction with Vinyl and/or live instrumentation? I've noticed an either/or split between 'Vinyl Purists' who denounce ableton as a cheat's method of DJing, and the 'laptop DJs' who see vinyl as a restrictive and archaic method of mixing, but personally I think both methods have their own virtues and I get a lot of joy out of performing on both formats simultaneously.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:42 am

I use Live with things like my Machinedrum, and I'm going to be throwing an Evolver into the mix today. I've also played with regular jam bands, giutars, sax, real drums etc. Works great. Like everything else mentioned in this thread, it just takes practice to get good at syncing or warping on the fly and staying in time.

Remembering the years I spent learning how to play guitar and teaching myself music theory, I have to laugh at the people complaining about how difficult, fake, or time-consuming using Live to DJ is.

It don't get much easier, people have no patience or willingness to explore what their tools can do beyond the obvious anymore....

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:20 pm

Tarekith wrote:I use about 3-4 for most dance tunes, takes about 20-30 seconds a song for me now. But it's different fro each tunes, some might need 20 markers and take 20 minutes to do.

Usually if a certain track is giving you issues, it's best to clear all the markers and come back to it the next day. 9 times out of 10 it's way easier the next day.

+1

it took me a minute to get my head around warping, but once i did i can buzz through em.

and definitely i have had some tunes that i was having a hard time with. did the same thing Tarekith does. left it alone, came back to it the next day (basically a good tip if a song production isn't working well too).