Ableton 6 + Reason Rewired, off sync ?
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Ableton 6 + Reason Rewired, off sync ?
I am noticing with the Ableton 6 demo that when running in ReWire mode, the apps are slightly off sync. The more I up the latency of my ASIO driver, the more out of sync they get.
Any ideas ?
I'm running an Echo Layla3G + Reason 3.04
Any ideas ?
I'm running an Echo Layla3G + Reason 3.04
Last edited by soundpalace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Short answer:
Use Reason's own sequencer to control Reason instruments, or don't use PDC or VSTs in Live.
Long and complex answer:
This I how I see it, but I could be wrong. Live delays the audio signal from Reason to Live. It does this to allow itself to compensate for the audio delay incurred by the various user set track delays and the PDC values from the various VSTi used.
To compensate for this delay in Reason's output, Live syncs Reason to an internal track counter running in front of Live's own track counter. This means that Reason is actually always playing internally ahead of the beat. You can see this on the VU meters of the Reason rack which show the audio signal before you get to hear it. The leading Reason audio output, when delayed by Live's rewire input stage, results in the two applications being in step with each other. In other words, the pre-delay in the Reason track counter and the delay in Live's input channels cancel each other out. Clever? Well sort of.
However, the problem is that any midi played into Reason via its own inputs, or via Live's internal rewire'd midi interconnects, results in audio that is also being delayed too. This cannot be compensated for since you can't send midi data before its actually been created.
So it is not the midi that is being delayed, which is what it seems at first, but the resultant output to Live.
What is needed, is for the midi output fed to Live to be pre-delayed so that Reason can play Live clips back in time. However, this isn't that practical since the amount of PDC is variable on the project settings, ie. the track delays and other compensation values. So if you change a setting in a VST device, you would need to change all the track delays to the Reason instruments. This should be done automatically by Live but isn't.
You can work around this partly by making the rewire inputs pre-delayed by more than the highest PDC value. Since you don't know what this is, try using something like -250mS. Reason and Live should now play in sync... but any Reason driven instruments like the Matrix and self playing Redrums will be out of step by 250mS.
Use Reason's own sequencer to control Reason instruments, or don't use PDC or VSTs in Live.
Long and complex answer:
This I how I see it, but I could be wrong. Live delays the audio signal from Reason to Live. It does this to allow itself to compensate for the audio delay incurred by the various user set track delays and the PDC values from the various VSTi used.
To compensate for this delay in Reason's output, Live syncs Reason to an internal track counter running in front of Live's own track counter. This means that Reason is actually always playing internally ahead of the beat. You can see this on the VU meters of the Reason rack which show the audio signal before you get to hear it. The leading Reason audio output, when delayed by Live's rewire input stage, results in the two applications being in step with each other. In other words, the pre-delay in the Reason track counter and the delay in Live's input channels cancel each other out. Clever? Well sort of.
However, the problem is that any midi played into Reason via its own inputs, or via Live's internal rewire'd midi interconnects, results in audio that is also being delayed too. This cannot be compensated for since you can't send midi data before its actually been created.
So it is not the midi that is being delayed, which is what it seems at first, but the resultant output to Live.
What is needed, is for the midi output fed to Live to be pre-delayed so that Reason can play Live clips back in time. However, this isn't that practical since the amount of PDC is variable on the project settings, ie. the track delays and other compensation values. So if you change a setting in a VST device, you would need to change all the track delays to the Reason instruments. This should be done automatically by Live but isn't.
You can work around this partly by making the rewire inputs pre-delayed by more than the highest PDC value. Since you don't know what this is, try using something like -250mS. Reason and Live should now play in sync... but any Reason driven instruments like the Matrix and self playing Redrums will be out of step by 250mS.
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Thank you both so much for your help. This is a pretty huge flaw that I never knew about. I appreciate you clearing it all up for me
Last edited by soundpalace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bump this for Ableton developers, can this be fixed ?
Last edited by soundpalace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Amaury wrote:Hi,
We are currently working on resolving the latency when using Live sequencer with Rewire devices, but I can't tell when that will be implemented.
Just to let you know it is worked on.
Kind regards,
Amaury
On behalf of all Rewire users,...
THANK YOU!
That simple dialog means alot to us.
/drez
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook M1 Pro Max, 64Gig RAM, 4TB internal SSD, Live 11, Push1/2/3, Reason, VST O'Plenty
MacBook M1 Pro Max, 64Gig RAM, 4TB internal SSD, Live 11, Push1/2/3, Reason, VST O'Plenty
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This is great news, Ableton's Rewire is second to none in most aspects and this big bug is the only thing holding it back from being the best implementation.
Please try to fix this as soon as you can, it's a major flaw and makes ReWire unusable for people using Ableton's sequencer with VSTis and Rewire devices.
Please try to fix this as soon as you can, it's a major flaw and makes ReWire unusable for people using Ableton's sequencer with VSTis and Rewire devices.
Last edited by soundpalace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Very glad to hear thisAmaury wrote:Hi,
We are currently working on resolving the latency when using Live sequencer with Rewire devices, but I can't tell when that will be implemented.
Just to let you know it is worked on.
Kind regards,
Amaury
3.6 GHz i7-9700K 8-Core|Win 10 64|MOTU 16a|Push 2|Live 10.1.15 Suite|Komplete12|Studio One V4|Reason 11|Zebra 2|Omnisphere 2||
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http://soundcloud.com/nomar161
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http://soundcloud.com/nomar161
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- Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:36 am
Bump, how's this one going ?
Last edited by soundpalace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Posts: 43
- Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:36 am
Just another little bump, any joy with this one ?
Last edited by soundpalace on Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.