Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:13 am

ethios4 wrote:
NorthernMonkey wrote:That to me is a strange view of life - are you suggesting that your belief in God (which I might add, I have absolutely nothing against) is some sort of conscious and/or subconscious form of self-policing, and without that policing you would show little or no compassion or regard towards fellow beings? Based on that you could argue that you are in fact serving your needs first and foremost by establishing your belief on God in the first place. I guess the question I'm asking is if, for some reason, the existence of God was proved to be false, would you then abandon all hope?
I don't believe in God so that morality will be inspired in me, but it works out that way.
If I didn't believe in God, I would still be controlled by fear of human punishment, ego, vanity, and a host of other psychological entanglements that would likely conspire to keep me from causing too much harm. But I wouldn't be trying to "be good" because morality is built into the universe, but because I didn't want to go to jail, I want to be perceived as "being good", because I was told what "good" is my whole life, etc. Deep in my heart I would know that I could have had anything I want in this world, but just wouldn't reach out and take it, and I would console myself by saying that I did good for humanity, for our little meaningless speck of specified complexity isolated in time and space.

Fair enough, I totally agree with you, I probably misinterpreted your post and incorrectly assumed you held a belief in god. What we really need is someone who is not only religious but is also passionate about their religion to balance the debate a little. Either way, it's a fascinating topic, especially with the forum members involved, and it's also a good distraction from slogging my way through the Zebra 2 manual!

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:26 am

No, you were right - I do believe there is a God, in the orthodox Christian sense of the word. I was answering "no" to your question of whether my beliefs were a form of conscious or unconscious form of self-policing. For more in-depth debate from a religious perspective see pages 30-40

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:33 am

conny wrote:
NorthernMonkey wrote: If you are saying no God without function, then I totally agree. God serves a purpose within the religious mindset. What interests me is the basic need driving that functional requirement, because that is close to (if not within) the boundaries of science, at least on a psychological level.
I guess I do say that.
(But, taking a more Zen like position, I could also go for a purposeless kind of God...)
But yes, the function may be partly psycological but that does not reduce the whole thing into compensating for our knowing we will die, our smallness in the universe etc.
It may hear strange, but I'm more and more going into some kind of linguistic thinking about "God", that it has to do with a structure, maybe resembling that a complete sentence should have both subject and predicate.
Or more accurate: A placeholder for "the other" in our communicating needs. A way to extemporate and dislocate our selves.
Without that, we might all be sociopats!
(And it does not to have to go by the namn of "God". But think about that it's said that He created us to His resemblance - I think it's a kind of key, a meta-statement, if you turn back upon it self).

// C

I think you've just summed up my stance on the whole issue. I don't have a problem with 'God' in terms of the basic principles or beliefs, in fact I would say the motion brings a certain amount of comfort when dealing with the various aspects of life - for example, I've been through enough family bereavements to realise that science is not enough when dealing with raw emotions that us mere humans are often saddled with - the purposeless God as you so eloquently put it without doubt has an important role in all of our lives, whether we admit it or not.

conny · Post by **conny** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:46 am

Just have to...

Dylan Moran on religions.
He's Zen story is wonderfully cryptic (or dirty).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sYilgE-oAes& ... ed&search=

// C

Seyser Koze · Post by **Seyser Koze** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:00 am

shtreimel wrote:
Seyser Koze wrote: It is an excellent book and one that should be read (as part of the national curriculum) by all school children alongside religious texts at "religious education" classes throughout the UK.
Funny because that's exactly what a few folks in my book club are doing...mainly reading:

The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder
and:
The God Delusion

at the same time. We've also invited a crazy bright dude from our synagogue (post doc in astrophysics) to partake in these discussions. Should be interesting.

I am very pleased to hear that.

Although adult debate is different because you have already formed your beliefs and no amount of discussion with anyone or books you read is likely to sway you from that belief. Which is of course fair enough. (But as we've already said in this thread, renders the whole debate ultimately pointless)

I'm more concerned with childrens education where they are effectively indoctrinated at school (in whichever religion happens to be espoused at their particular establishment usually of their parents choosing and faith) and I think open debate of this nature will allow them to form their own opinions and make up their own minds.

What parent would not want their child to be a freethinker?

Sadly not all modern societies allow their children these freedoms. Perhaps they are scared that the children will decide not to follow the religious beliefs they themselves hold so dear and the very future continuation of their belief system will be thrown into doubt.

Only by indoctrination of their children at an early age can they ensure the continuation of their religion.

A real shame. Totally unfair and unnecessary.

Children are not born with religious belief, they are (by random chance) born to parents of a certain faith and that will unfortunately remove their freedom of thought from the day they are born.

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:16 pm

all is wrong here=no fucking chance to change anything!
but..... concentrate yourself in music and ask why the radio/tv plays so much shit.
if you know something about it ,go and change it!
this comes from god,because we have to support the good and not the shit.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:20 pm

Seyser Koze wrote:I'm more concerned with childrens education where they are effectively indoctrinated at school (in whichever religion happens to be espoused at their particular establishment usually of their parents choosing and faith) and I think open debate of this nature will allow them to form their own opinions and make up their own minds.

What parent would not want their child to be a freethinker?

Uh, many...thank God. Are you being serious? If you're not filling your heads w/ something, anything positive, they're left to the devices of advertising, peers, etc. for knowledge. I've worked w/ kids whose parent's felt "better they figure things out for themselves", there's not enough years of therapy and addiction treatment centers for these kids.

I feel exactly the opposite of you my friend. I wish my parent's would've instilled in me a sense of awe and mystery about the world. And I'm not talking merely about God - though in my case it would have been welcomed - but merely fascination and curiosity. But so many of us grow up, shed dreams, and become slaves to material wants and spend time lamenting dreams unfulfilled. As a result, our kids are treated to dreary and bleak role models. No, we don't need paren'ts leaving their kids alone. We need exactly the opposite. Now if said parent don't believe in God, fine, fill their heads with wonders in which you subscribe. But please...PLEASE...don't leave 'em to figure out things on their own. There's a good chance they'll find their answer in a vial of Meth.

And yes, I'm a therapist. Don't trust me, check out Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers :
http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids-Pa ... F8&s=books

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:32 pm

And yes, I'm a therapist

are you proud of it? no, you're not.
for what are you working for?

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:33 pm

Seyser Koze wrote:A real shame. Totally unfair and unnecessary.

Children are not born with religious belief, they are (by random chance) born to parents of a certain faith and that will unfortunately remove their freedom of thought from the day they are born.

Y'know, having worked with children for so long, I find your words so, so sad. Seriously. Kids are born with an incredible, wonderful capacity to see mystery in so many things. And we kill it...over and over and over again. They GET the miracles, and we, too often, plop 'em in from of a DVD on tv and destroy it for them.

In fact, leave a kid alone, and s/he will learn if you bite someone hard enough, they'll give you their cookie. Super. So now we have an adult who's learned that physical force actually works. A generation of sociopaths...super duper. They don't respond well to adult forms of therapy. Did you know that?

My God. Is this what Dawkins has inspired? I'm assuming these are Seyser's innovations not Harris or Dawkins.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:36 pm

Dominik wrote:
And yes, I'm a therapist
are you proud of it? no, you're not.
for what are you working for?

The evolution of responses to this post:

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:44 pm

shtreimel wrote:
Dominik wrote:
And yes, I'm a therapist
are you proud of it? no, you're not.
for what are you working for?
The evolution of responses to this post:

i don't believe therapist if they are not free.that's all.

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:21 pm

...and by the way. before i'm discuss about god.
did you ever sign a contract to go to earth you stupid.
writing 50 pages topic about god...

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:42 pm

Dominik wrote:
shtreimel wrote:
Dominik wrote: are you proud of it? no, you're not.
for what are you working for?
The evolution of responses to this post:

i don't believe therapist if they are not free.that's all.

It appears, you've gotten what you have paid for.

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:47 pm

For those that are interested, there is a great ongoing discussion going on right now between Sam Harris and Andrew Sullivan. Similar to things that I (and others on both 'sides' of the question) have been saying here, but without any mudslinging. Very interesting, indeed.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/209/story_20904.html

victorjohn · Post by **victorjohn** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:03 pm

shtreimel wrote: Y'know, having worked with children for so long, I find your words so, so sad. Seriously. Kids are born with an incredible, wonderful capacity to see mystery in so many things. And we kill it...over and over and over again. They GET the miracles, and we, too often, plop 'em in from of a DVD on tv and destroy it for them.

In fact, leave a kid alone, and s/he will learn if you bite someone hard enough, they'll give you their cookie. Super. So now we have an adult who's learned that physical force actually works. A generation of sociopaths...super duper. They don't respond well to adult forms of therapy. Did you know that?

This is so true about our generation, but at least we had hoped in Pharma-solutions. I wonder what knowing that Prozac can't do will motivate in our children? Hopelessness? The Enlightenment failed us, and like you I am glad that there are still people in the world that teach their kids the meta-narrative and insist on helping them make sense of the world while encouraging them to look at life metaphysically... our lives in the context of an unknown and exciting universe.