Ooooooook, The great debate - tip-toed around for too long

matias · Post by **matias** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:50 pm

Gday all,
Using live for about 1yr now, which has served me all to well, I have been doing some producing for a producer, who owns the biggest label in his field in the UK... I wont mention names as I don't know who knows who here, and he has convinced me to produce the style in writing for him in logic for pc. "the longterm gain is better, n the sound quality is second to none", he would say. I can see the benefits of using logic for its midi/vsti's/plugs, but I spend 4hrs doing things in logic which takes me 30mins to do in live.
My question to you all is the following, should I use logic for its long term gain or stick to what I know?? and is the sound quality different between logic/live?? (the old algorithim spiel)

Im going to dabble in logic, but stick to live as I've got the confidence in the program.

your thoughts............

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:12 pm

matias wrote:Gday all,
Using live for about 1yr now, which has served me all to well, I have been doing some producing for a producer, who owns the biggest label in his field in the UK... I wont mention names as I don't know who knows who here, and he has convinced me to produce the style in writing for him in logic for pc. "the longterm gain is better, n the sound quality is second to none", he would say. I can see the benefits of using logic for its midi/vsti's/plugs, but I spend 4hrs doing things in logic which takes me 30mins to do in live.
My question to you all is the following, should I use logic for its long term gain or stick to what I know?? and is the sound quality different between logic/live?? (the old algorithim spiel)

Im going to dabble in logic, but stick to live as I've got the confidence in the program.

your thoughts............

I can't speak for Logic, but Cubase SX (which is a presumably similar competitor) has superior sound to Ableton Live - at least with warped samples. If you aren't warping, then you won't get the artifacts that warping causes. But for straight up production, I still use Cubase and Live is a performance tool only for me.

L8er
Montrealbreaks

robbmasters · Post by **robbmasters** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:16 pm

There is no "long term" when you're talking about "Logic for PC". It's a dead product line.

My personal opinion is that he sounds blinkered to anything outside his chosen way of working - though of course we don't know exactly what he's thinking. I used to used Logic for everything, but there are something that Live is better at, and to not use Live for those things seems pointless...

Can you rewire Live into Logic as a compromise?

robbmasters · Post by **robbmasters** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:20 pm

Just wanted to add "as long as it is those things that Live is better at that you're using it for (e.g. incorporating tempo changes into pre-recorded audio)." If you're just using Live to timestretch / pitch shift an audio file of one consistent tempo to another consistent tempo, Logic will probably do a better job of it (as MontrealBreaks suggests).

matias · Post by **matias** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:35 pm

"a software purist" is how i would describe him as for most people. Use protools because of this...n use logic because of this.... im sticking to what I know n using other programs alongside, as u suggest rewire.. a happy comprimise....I dont use any stretching or warping at all.
so the quality shuld be the same as any other.....

tjwett · Post by **tjwett** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:35 pm

yeah, i agree. i use both Logic and Live, although not together very often. Live is my inspiration and my fun and i use it for my own personal music. however the audio can lack polish when you've got a lot of timestretching going on. i also do scoring and composing for t.v. and other things and that's when i use Logic, along with some high quality plug-ins. Logic isn't much fun, so i use it for "work". Live is a blast, so i use it for "play". keeps me happy.

Porpy · Post by **Porpy** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:56 pm

i think the audio editing in live is unparalled. As someone said above, the warping can degrade things, but if you listen out for it and apply your warp markers carefully you can often overcome a lot of this.

A combination of the two will definitely be a good thing, though I use Logic and Live on the mac so i cant really comment about how the two programs go together on the pc - I mean in respect to rewire.

Certainly the plugins and instruments in logic sound great and can add an instant sheen to your stuff no matter what else you use.

But if the stuff you are finding hard in logic is the audio editing, then stick to live all the way, its just so cool to be able to grab bits and duplicate and mess with very quickly. Even Logic 6 on the mac requires usually 3 more steps than Live to do the same thing.

On a side-note, the whole Logic thing can really get in the way of how you work. I know of a guy in the UK who was being pressured by the production music company he writes for to switch to logic, cause 'everyone else is using it, and its the only way to get good quality'. He spent a whole load of money on a new mac and logic and the works. 3 months later he took logic back, replaced it with Cubase SX and it has been smooth sailing ever since.

I love Logic, but I hate it when people get sucked into the whole 'pro' thing. It aint true, use whats easy for you and sounds good.

regards

p

newsean · Post by **newsean** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:00 pm

i had been using Cubase and Logic since they came out years ago. i eventually, (couple of months ago) completely switched over to Live w/ Reason rewired and i can't be any happier. i got so fed up with bugs and the complete BORING-NESS of regular linear sequencer programs...protools just makes me want to fall asleep...so my advice is to ditch everything and use LIVE w/ Reason rewired...Live is only going to get better and better...

matias · Post by **matias** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:13 pm

arrr good good, nice to hear that im not the only one being roped into using logic, because its "better", n "every1 else is using it"

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:23 pm

I started on logic years ago, then got cubase sx when it came out (stayed on PC) and use cubase sx in the studio i work in, but at home I now use mainly live, but tracktion for other MIDI HD recording stuff live isn't that strong at.

Personally I don't see the quality thing, and it seems like it's a bit of a myth as most of the 'high end quality' I get in a mix is from my plug-ins.

In terms of creative flow cubase/ just gets in the way I much prefer live

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:30 am

Many around here think that Live is fun & cool...
but many here 'consolidate' in LIVE then mix in Logic (or whatever) to get the best sounding mix. There is a difference. (plus ya have tons of other useful tools, fx's, instruments, midi, movie sync, etc...) At least try ReWiring Live into the other DAW and use Live only for stretched & tweaked audio parts for best fidelity. Further, on important work I jam an arrangement in LIVE and once the piece takes shape I redo it in Melodyne (or others)... Of corce if I use other things like MIDI & soft instruments I ReWire Live to my Logic (etc)...

Also, Live is fast & fun but the time stretching is not the best.
For that I use Melodyne. NO comparison.
Live does not do 'transient' detection like Acid, Apple Loops format, or Melodyne. It simply stretches audio by 'grain size' or beat values (1/4, 1/8, 1/16th note etc) so anything between beat settings is badly stretched with a lot of artifacts. I love the beat marking but without the transient detection it's not top quality. Hope Ableton add this.

main · Post by **main** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:27 am

although logic is dead on pc i still use ist. if you compare the the sound quality logic still beats live.

i am still not satisfied with live's warping, especially at basslines. if i switch to tone and a medium grain size the bass is not tight enough, experiments with grainsize had no better results. if i switch to beat and 16th the beat is tight but i get artifacts. and that all at 130 when original was max 135. any idea?

so i use live only live (sounds okay in techno clubs) or for pre-arranging (flow than linear arranging). after recording my arrangement i print it out and arrange it again in logic. for timestretching i use prosoniq time factory.

btw like the dynamics in logic esp. sidechain compressor. and i still won't switch to cubase as long as it has no serious dynamics.

main.

robbmasters · Post by **robbmasters** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:32 am

main wrote:although logic is dead on pc i still use ist. if you compare the the sound quality logic still beats live.

Yes, that's true. I still use it myself from time to time. But it seems an odd package to choose to focus on for the "long term" (unless a migration to Mac is planned).

I've pretty much moved over to Cubase SX for what I was using Logic for now, and Cubase's timestretching seems to be even better than Logic's.

If I know what time stretch I need, and it's completely linear, I'll do it in Cubase. If I need to try various tempos out, or have tempo changes, I'll do it in Live (rewired into Cubase).

main · Post by **main** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:33 am

and i forgot:

logic and rewire... no way
reason + live is no alternative to a prof. synth like e.g. absynth or reaktor or vanguard in logic.

did anybody tried sonar 3?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:02 pm

well, I for one think Live's quality of sound is great. I don't time-stretch anything, cause I don't use loops or sample cds, and play everything to fit the song. I've recorded two mulit-track (24+ tracks) albums worth of material for bands I'm in with Live, and I've had great results. I think its a bit unfair to diss Live's sound quality just because it doesn't time stretch like others. Sure, time stretching degrades audio, big surprise, but when not warping audio in Live, I think the sound is just fine for me. I have sonar, and have tried cubase, but for workflow reasons, I'm all about Live.

Ryan

Ooooooook, The great debate - tip-toed around for too long

Ooooooook, The great debate - tip-toed around for too long

Re: Ooooooook, The great debate - tip-toed around for too long