You don't need Pro Tools Dude!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
SubFunk
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Post by SubFunk » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:01 pm

stinky wrote:
Also, i think i read that live's midi resolution was 480ppq, but i could be wrong... it still hasn't been confirmed, unless someone else has a reference? PT's is 960ppq, but that's standard. However, this may be why some people have midi sync issues, especially with MPC (depends what version of the hardware).. i can't confirm this, this is just my guess.
i don't know the excact number, but in that department Logic for example beats the hell out of Live and all other DAWs, if you have a good fully weighted hammer action controller keyboard and are a player, then you hear simply every single / super tiny nuance, while recording a midi sequence.
to me this is very important, i am not a good player at all, actually i can only play extremely poorly, but have to record often serious piano players. and it would be a shame to kill their playing skills / FEEL with "quantisation" or to be exact with mediocre midi resolution.

besides all other mentioned issues which are true, -> adonis of course you can make a jam with any apps, that is i guess not the point of discussion, the point is that there are DAWs with functions you simply either need for a certain job or do make live easier and saving very precius time.
not all people who are involved in music only writing jams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ever thought of that??

you can essentially make music even with the most outdated gear / software... slowest wreck computers, that is out of question, unless i missunderstand the discussion.

and simply Live as great as it is, does not supply a lot of what for a lot of people is an essential necessarity.

quandry
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Post by quandry » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:11 pm

Stinky--again, many thanks for having patience with my PT ignorance and taking the time to be so informative, much appreciated. You are starting to win me over to the PT side for multitrack band recording. I'll have to go look into it myself with some googlin', but to ask a dumb question, can I run PT with my RME (sounds like I can based on what you said), and what version should I consider with my slightly old P4 2.4, 1 gig o RAM toshiba laptop. I will miss some of the live delays and other effects but I guess there's always rewire and bouncing tracks. Anyhow, thanks again for all of your insights dude! You should get a free copy of PT.
Dell Studio XPS 8100 Windows 7 64-bit, 10 GB RAM. RME Multiface, Avalon U5 & M5, Distressor, Filter Factory, UC33e, BCR-2000, FCB1010, K-Station, Hr 824 & H120 sub, EZ Bus, V-Drums, DrumKat EZ, basses, guitars, pedals... http://www.ryan-hughes.net

stinky
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Post by stinky » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:43 pm

Thanks quandry, but i'm not trying to win anybody over to PT. Just pointing out the merits per the thread. If you're interested in PT, you're in for a long haul, as far as getting good with it. It's complex as shit. But, once mastering it, you'll know tons more about recording in general. I would say already coming from a background recording live bands in Live, if you read watch the tutorials (may be too basic, but always a good start) and read the manual cover to cover, you should be able to spend a good 3-6 months (depending on how much time you actually devote to it) getting a solid foundation. After a year, you'll be rock solid in it.

You can run live rewired, and use any of live's instruments and effects (not on tracks inside PT, but only inside live's rewired). You can use vsts in PT as well, using fxpansion vst->rtas converter (it's was, but now isn't the only converter out there). And, i stated before that PT has shitty midi routing/mapping. Well, i've overcome that by using EnergyXT and using it as a wrapper. Using it's midi functions and midi routing is awesome as hell, and EnergyXT is a kickass and cheap little host that's saved me a ton of times, not just in PT but in Live as well.

As for power, i've got a P4 2.8 1gb that i use as my main daw running PT7. Now, the one thing that will piss you off is that PT is a memory hog. It's a huge memory hog. Just running it alone will take up 1/3-1/2 your memory, swear to go. But, you'll find creative ways to get around that (mostly by submixing)and it'll teach you how to manage your mixes better. Final warning, in PTLE, you can only record 32 multitracks (that's mono, so 16 stereo) at any given time. This alone can be a dealbreaker for PTLE. Sorry, there's not much you can do about that, but pony up for TDM/HD ($$$$).

Again, my post wasn't to encourage anybody to move over to PT. It requires $$ to maintain & upgrade (you have to pay to upgrade after 3 months and everytime after). Using RME on a PC and if i didn't want to fork over the cash for PTLE, i'd go with Cubase instead of Live for real-multitrack recording (unless you want the integrated hardware/software control surface, in which case you can use a mackie, or radikalSac2k). Again, the real merits for understanding PT is real-world industry standard experience. And, you'll pay for it. But, now that the 002 is 3 years old, you can find a full console on ebay for around $1300-1400 and a rack for less than $1000. Anyways... have fun.

stinky
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Post by stinky » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:51 pm

just wanted to make one more point, because i don't know if i was clear or not. RME is not m-powered, so you'd have to either buy PT hardware or m-powered compatible hardware to run PT (which may be the cheaper solution if you just want to learn). That's all, folks.

gomi
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Re: well said

Post by gomi » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:20 pm

silicon1138 wrote:great bit of steam releasing !

i'd rather eat one of my own limbs than look at the protools GUI.
well protools has ALMOST entered the 1980's with it's midi support!
come, a few more things, and it will be 1982 all over again!

ha ha

gomi
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Post by gomi » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:39 pm

dodgyedgy wrote:
rbmonosylabik wrote:Pro Tools = Overpriced DAW at every level.
At 769 quid it isnt overpriced.. espeically when you get a truly excellent soundcard with it and a host of decent plugins..
that is over priced for LE.

to add the functionality that every other daw of the same level you have
to pay even more.


1500$US for a little bar that shows feet/frames? COME ON?!!!

(dvtoolkit)

leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:47 pm

pro tools makes a lot of sense for tracking music with "real" instruments.

But it's just workflow differences if we're talking about mixing in the box on an LE system. PT's summing bus isn't somehow magically better than live's. And it's not hard to get an audio interface that sounds better than 002.


Once you get to an HD system, it's a differrent story. Of course, the operator of the system will always have more to do with the quality of the final output than the system will.



.lm.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

DeadlyKungFu
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Post by DeadlyKungFu » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:10 pm

A coworker always comes at me with how cool Sonar is "Have you tried Sonar 5?", "WOW, Sonar x came out and it does...", "You can rewire Live into Sonar which is good because Sonar sounds better" blah blah blah. Another co-worker comes at me with "Dude, I just spent $10k on a Pro Tools rig". Wow, I am so impressed. :roll: What the hell are you thinking? (This is the same guy who owns a PRS electric that he brought to a bonfire but can't play but a few chords.) His favorite adjective is "Pro". Totally pretentious.

Anymore I just call out "fanboy" and remind them all once again (and again and again and again) that I'm a die hard Live user. Most of my beat banging coworkers get it, we talk gear and jams, not DAW, we're past that.

Fanboys and whiners will always be around. :roll: That shit drives me nuts but I've learned to ignore it and stop flaming idiot whiners.

I could give a shit what anyone has to say about what sounds better, show me your hits then I'll listen. Banging beats is the only thing that matters, I don't care how much money you spend or what you use. People have done more with less.

Like Weird Al Yankovic recording "Another One Rides the Bus" in a Cal Poly bathroom on a tape 4 track. Not the height of human acheivement but it got him out of a day job for life. Dumb tune, simple recording, big bucks, THAT'S cool.


Shut up and play.

jasonjbundy
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Post by jasonjbundy » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:20 am

No you do not need Pro Tools if you use Ableton. Nor do you need their shitty tech support that is as useful as a scat fetish. And you definitely do not need to waste money on the ridiculously overly priced RTAS plugins.

Once upon a time back in the mid to late 90's PT was cutting edge. Now they are playing catch up.

Anyways software snobbery and OS snobbery are bullshit. It is what you produce that counts.

arendownie
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Re: well said

Post by arendownie » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:42 pm

gomi wrote:
silicon1138 wrote:great bit of steam releasing !

i'd rather eat one of my own limbs than look at the protools GUI.
well protools has ALMOST entered the 1980's with it's midi support!
come, a few more things, and it will be 1982 all over again!

ha ha

Wow, and Logic Pro just has almost entered the 80's with it's audio support! A few more things, and it's Pro Tools III and 1991 all over again!

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:00 pm

Why is pro tools tdm cool? And why do some dudes need it?

Last week I dropped 31 tracks into record, all day. Then I comped between 6 takes of the 31 tracks in a flash. Easy.

I haven't tapped out plugins on a mix yet. And I mainly use 48 bit dbl precision plugs with impunity. Sweet.

Any kind of editing or comping is a dream. Too easy.

Months between crashes that last no longer than a reboot.

Every studio I walk into has a PT rig. nice.

Like it or not, it is the world standard by a long shot. Because of this PT will be picking the dude instead.

And what stinky said.

subbasshead
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Post by subbasshead » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:26 pm

Why is pro tools tdm cool? And why do some dudes need it?
Last week I dropped 31 tracks into record, all day. Then I comped between 6 takes of the 31 tracks in a flash. Easy.

For music I dont know the answer, but for post 31 tracks really isnt much...
try temp mixing 160 tracks to multiple 5.1 stems (Dialog/FX/Foley/Music)
while also playing back conformed 5.1 stems from previous temp mixes,
all while solidly locked to picture & running a LOT of plugins on a LOT of tracks...

This isnt to say one program is better than another,
its just that the 'best' program is TOTALLY dependant on your use
& for some applications a PT TDM system IS essential

I sure as hell wouldnt want to own one, but I am glad someone does
& i can wander in there with my tracks prepped on an affordable LE system
& be up & mixing in 5 or 10 minutes...

ikke
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Post by ikke » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:35 pm

I do not agree with the topicstarter. For Live beein a decent mixing app it needs parameter values (when you touch a fader or a panpot for example) and track grouping options..
..On the other hand Pro Tools kinda blows for composing!

So I use both! :D

I think mixing in Pro Tools is the best. Ive tried everything out there. Pro Tools is just easier and has a very good workflow.

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:44 pm

subbasshead wrote:
Why is pro tools tdm cool? And why do some dudes need it?
Last week I dropped 31 tracks into record, all day. Then I comped between 6 takes of the 31 tracks in a flash. Easy.

For music I dont know the answer, but for post 31 tracks really isnt much...
try temp mixing 160 tracks to multiple 5.1 stems (Dialog/FX/Foley/Music)
while also playing back conformed 5.1 stems from previous temp mixes,
all while solidly locked to picture & running a LOT of plugins on a LOT of tracks...

This isnt to say one program is better than another,
its just that the 'best' program is TOTALLY dependant on your use
& for some applications a PT TDM system IS essential

I sure as hell wouldnt want to own one, but I am glad someone does
& i can wander in there with my tracks prepped on an affordable LE system
& be up & mixing in 5 or 10 minutes...
Amen brother 8)

JahGuide
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Post by JahGuide » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:31 pm

When I just got Live I thought I needed Sonar so I kept looking at sonar and doing research. after awhile I realized that it wasnt the program that was the issue it was me, so I went out and bought that Live power book. I never looked back. Now I am getting a DVD to see if I can get more out of Live. What can I say I am totally in love with the program. I hate that industry standard bullshit, to me thats like saying anything else but the standard is no good. So yeah I would never invest in Protools or anything else. Live and Reason gives me al I need. Lee Perry and many other cats did not have Pro Tools and all this other bullshit, all they had was there desire to create art and be good at it. I want to create art and be good at it using Live. Proud Live snob here :D to hell with Pro Tools

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