The real problem with Live- Vox composite/ crossfading

buwatcha · Post by **buwatcha** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:46 pm

If Live would add just one feature I and many other producers could throw away PT, Cubase, Logic, etc.

Live needs to allow you to record several takes and create a composite track with crossfades on the edit points. You cannot produce vocals without this ability.

No serious producer can consider Live a full DAW b/c we still have to run PT or something else to do the vocals.

Please add this feature and put your creative spin on it so its even easier and better than it is in the other apps.

djsynchro · Post by **djsynchro** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:25 am

Live does a very short x-fade already or you woud hear a click.
For longer ones: Two tracks (routed into a third track for convenience) will allow you to do an overlapping fade in and out with the automation envelopes. The third track is for compressor eq etcetera and your master vocal level, or you could render to a new track when you're happy comping. That should do it IMHO.

I comp vocal tracks and don't need crossfades myself by the way. A word is either in or out, but this might not be your cup of tea.

I threw away Logic, haven't missed it once. Last time I looked at it I had to giggle, environment, toolbox, matrix edit, logical edit, hyper edit floating (you have a choice to have it non-floating so it disappears under one of many windows) locator window score edit sample edit... WHATEVER!!!!

buwatcha · Post by **buwatcha** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:51 pm

I thought it only applied a fade in and out on the ends of a clip - not a true crossfade that overlaps a neighboring clip.

And, I've considered the automation possiblities using two tracks but that is very cumbersome and time consuming - particularly when you know how easy it is in other apps.

I'd like to see a vocal track type (could be used for any instrument) that was specifically designed for easy recording and organization of multiple takes and comp construction. Maybe even some integrated vox processing like what Sonar is doing with the Roland stuff - but that part's not essential.

Although, it seems to me if you made an app that handled vocal comping better than anybody else you would become an essential studio tool.

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:09 pm

buwatcha wrote:If Live would add just one feature I and many other producers could throw away PT, Cubase, Logic, etc.

Live needs to allow you to record several takes and create a composite track with crossfades on the edit points. You cannot produce vocals without this ability.

No serious producer can consider Live a full DAW b/c we still have to run PT or something else to do the vocals.

Please add this feature and put your creative spin on it so its even easier and better than it is in the other apps.

Absolutely !!!!

In fact in my current vocal project I found comping to be inconvenient compared with Cubase.

Ableton could really do with some sort of Stacked Recording mode with X number of takes stacked in a single track (automatically) like Cubase.

Also aligning vocal trakes in Cubase (for doulbe tracking effects) is simple due to Audio Events having a user definable Snap point which is independent to Audio Events "gate open" time.

Cheers

nobbystylus · Post by **nobbystylus** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:53 pm

yeah.. basically it needs 'virtual tracks' like logic.. so you can multiple versions of track 1 with different takes on each.. with playback priority going to the top track.. then a nice merge/consolidate/mixdown feature when your done comping..

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:21 pm

Funny, I would have no need for virtual tracks - i like using real tracks instead)
... but I would *love* some good old crossfading (Logic style, preferably)

jasefos · Post by **jasefos** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:44 am

Machinate wrote:Funny, I would have no need for virtual tracks - i like using real tracks instead)
... but I would *love* some good old crossfading (Logic style, preferably)

Yes ... Crossfading would be good!

Maybe a blend of the best aspects of Cubase SX's and Logic 7's crossfading functions (I personally find Cubase SX's works superbly well?

Cheers

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:46 am

jasefos wrote:
Machinate wrote:Funny, I would have no need for virtual tracks - i like using real tracks instead)
... but I would *love* some good old crossfading (Logic style, preferably)
Yes ... Crossfading would be good!

Maybe a blend of the best aspects of Cubase SX's and Logic 7's crossfading functions (I personally find Cubase SX's works superbly well?

Cheers

another exciting aspect of this - and i've talked about this before - is that the ability to crossfade would bring with it the ability to play two sounds from one track at the same time... in session view this could lead to some mad mad stuff... can't wait, I just hope it's high on their probably enormous list.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:24 am

remember singing? I like that a lot better than comping.

uhhhm, right, simple crossfades would be really nice anyway.

.lm.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:42 am

I had to use cubase recently just for the crossfades in a biiig ambient peice (50 minutes).

I started the project in Live, two tracks for each element, drawing manual envelopes - but it was taking forever.

Live is lacking the easy ability to drag clips 'overlapping' and just hitting X for a crossfade, it was slowing me right down. I completed the arrangement in Cubase really quick.

It reminded me just how poor Live's arrangement window is, compared to Cubase, no matter how much Live excels in other areas that will be its downfall.

buwatcha · Post by **buwatcha** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:34 pm

Here's the problem: People who just mess around for fun or play live don't have any need for comping. But, people who want to use Live as a professional production tool can't do so without comping. It all depends where Ableton wants to go.

I guess to show the abes how fair and reasonable I am I'll reduce my request to simple crossfading in the arrangement. This is the heart of the problem. You can record multiple takes and create a composite (though it is ten times harder than in other apps) but you cannot crossfade the resulting edit points - which is the real deal breaker.

So, first, give us crossfading. I'm sure one of the interns can type this into the code.

Then, look at Cubase, PT and others and see how they handle comping. Then simplify it and make it fun and better like everything else about Live.

icedsushi · Post by **icedsushi** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:45 pm

Not as convenient, but why not use 2 tracks, assign them A/B and automate Live's crossfader. Then render the result and load it into a single track. Gets the job done, no?

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:06 pm

icedsushi wrote:Not as convenient, but why not use 2 tracks, assign them A/B and automate Live's crossfader. Then render the result and load it into a single track. Gets the job done, no?

Angstrom wrote:I had to use cubase recently just for the crossfades in a biiig ambient peice (50 minutes).
I started the project in Live, two tracks for each element, drawing manual envelopes - but it was taking forever.

in live drag 20 clips around in arrangement and then press 'X' 20 times, thats the cubase method.
Compare that to what you are suggesting. Imagine what happens when you move one of the clips - Using the crossfader the x-fade wont move with the clip as it is locked with the master track. Now try and move that master envelope at the same time as the vocal chunk, without moving anything else.

Aaaaargh

that is about the order of quickness we are missing out on. That's what I did in cubase. In there if you hover over the join and drag - you edit the fade, it's very simple. Move a clip - the cross fade adjusts.

not the same as comping, but an indicator.

amo · Post by **amo** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:15 am

Angstrom wrote: in live drag 20 clips around in arrangement and then press 'X' 20 times, thats the cubase method.
Compare that to what you are suggesting. Imagine what happens when you move one of the clips - Using the crossfader the x-fade wont move with the clip as it is locked with the master track. Now try and move that master envelope at the same time as the vocal chunk, without moving anything else.

Aaaaargh

that is about the order of quickness we are missing out on. That's what I did in cubase. In there if you hover over the join and drag - you edit the fade, it's very simple. Move a clip - the cross fade adjusts.

not the same as comping, but an indicator.

I love cubase style too. Donno about logic, but cubase I much prefer than pro tools where you still have to open a box, can move clips with crossfades ala cubase etc...
Hope Ableton gets inspired by cubase style when they implement crossfading and fading !

funk313 · Post by **funk313** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:00 pm

yeah crossfading like PT is definately something i miss alot about Live.. smooth
and elegant and a real kickass tool for fixing vocals. this crossfading a/b shits not the deal.. its made for djing not vocal producing. ive tried it a lot of times trying to fix vocals but its riddicules compared to pt.. give us crossfading damnit.. another thing a totally miss (not to get of topic) is the silence tool in PT (cutting away silence on a recording). how hard could that be to make..

The real problem with Live- Vox composite/ crossfading

The real problem with Live- Vox composite/ crossfading

Re: The real problem with Live- Vox composite/ crossfading