Effective song writing

[DeadlyKungFu]

I've exported midi from band in a box into Ableton. I don't play keys (midi guitar on the way) but I've 'created' some really dreamy melodies in BIAB (jazz styles slowed to ~35bpm). I've also used it for reggae bass and drums, a style that's not so easy to reproduce. Most of my satisfaction comes from original stuff but BIAB is a powerful tool for 'making' music. It's also a great jam tool for real instrument practice, as is Ableton, of course.

...and I agree, starting with drums is limiting, that's a bad habit I have, but I love drums! boom-bip, da boom-boom bip

One of these days I expect my PC to just start releasing albums to the internet without me, I probably won't even make the liner notes.

[Neil Bomb'd]

Great thread! What do people think about song structure for electronic music...do you folks generally use a traditional structure or is that not really required?

[noisetonepause]

Great thread! What do people think about song structure for electronic music...do you folks generally use a traditional structure or is that not really required?

Just as long as there is some sort of structure..! I really hate hearing music that's just the same loop for six minutes with a breakdown every sixteen bars. It doesn't have to be verse-chorus-verse, but there has to be some form of development for me to be interested...

Instead of ABABCB (pretty much your usual pop song, verse chorus verse chorus middle-eight chorus ad nauseam), I generally start from something quite simple and rigid like ABA, ABCBA, or ABCBD. Then I'll maybe merge elements from two bits when one of them comes back or whatever. I really like having the end mirror the beginning, though... Listen to Rage Against the Machine's Bulls On Parade for a good example (and some seriously amazing beats and riffs) of how wrapping up a song like this can work really well.

Another trick that's great if you can get it away with it is having one element that's more or less constant (like a really good drum beat or lick) and then just present it in different contexts.

To be honest I think the best advice was given on the first page - just steal. Everyone does it. Load an MP3 into the arrange view and just do what it does at first, then delete it and leave the song for a few days and go back and listen to it again.

You want the arrangement to flow in a natural, unconstricted way like it should. Even abrupt breaks can - and should IMHO - feel 'right'. You want each section to lead into the next as though it was the most obvious thing in the world.

If you wanna study the masters of this, you should probably look to recent-ish classical music - Igor Stravinsky's symphonies spring to mind - as that's probably where you'll find the most experimental and free stuff, structure wise.

If you don't like symphony orchestras, listen to [url=http://www.postmansyndrome.com]the Postman Syndrome[/ur] for an example of a rock band that really now how to structure a piece in a free but effective manner. They used to have MP3s on site but I don't know about now... in a somewhat similar style and for similar reasons I'd recommend the band Tool.

-Paws

[neomodo]

I studied music composition in college/music school and although I sometimes use some of the ways I learned to think about writing more often than not I chuck the rules. You are having a particular problem that is specific to loop based (non linear) recording tools. You get stuck in the loop. I know that it has been an issue in the past for me - I would find myself looping until kindgdom come - I'd tweak this and that and end up with intricate and over developed loops but I had a hard time connecting stuff... each loop would have its own characteristics and what not.

When I first bought Ableton, it was because I found the arrangement view to be the closest to a tape recorder. I have rarely spent any time in Session window although it is specifically designed to help you connect the loops... For me sticking with a slightly more linear convention makes a difference - I work out the skeleton of a piece all the way through and then go back to flesh it out. I use Reason and Korg Legacy as my primary instruments at that point and only once I have stuff worked out to some degree do the guitars, bass, live kit, and vocals come in and I replace some of the synth voicings.

I also use my MP3 player like mentioned by someone else - I throw all my ideas in that puppy and head on out ...to work, to a bar, wherever - I recently thought I lost that puppy and was mortified at the thought that someone at work might have found it and listened to all my 30 sec. chunks of ideas - or worse anything where I'm working out the vocal melody...

Now if I could only remember how to write decent lyrics...

[Angstrom]

on the lyrics front -

I was once privelidged to spy on a famous female vocalist writing new material in what I thought was an unusual way. I later found that many people do it the same way .. just perhaps not so extreme.

the way.

First - when you have you melody - sing it in a mad mess of sylables - apparently (from the recent linked Eno BBC interview) )Bono calls his mad language 'bongolese' . "Snoo de bao , fram panas to bo godomo" etc.

Eno said that the 'ensmallment comes when we try to fit meaning to our pure musical vocalisations', he bemoaned the tendancy to try and make some poor quality sense - "baby I love you " etc.

This 'famous female vocalist' friend of mine bypassed the "baby I love you" by simply raiding the bookshelves for random books and looking for words that phonetically matched her crazy phonetic language.
ty ne pi yo = "tiny pillow"

It certainly explains why her records sound like they do (ie mystifying), but the technique does work to break down the 'logical brain' hijacking the creative process.

[neomodo]

i suppose there's always the cocteu twins approach... lyrics? who needs lyrics? I do the nonsensical jibberish thing as well - and sometimes I bust out words in one of the languages I know - heck if I get an idea that sounds ok and gets me rolling in some direction english doesn't have to be the way to go...

unfortunately - for music to reach the majority of people (songs is what i mean not music) it has to be accessible to them. I don't know if there's too much room out there for a thubch fo gribrsh fradalaombabo type songs.

lyrics are tough for me because I don't write about your typical stuff... I try to write about things I feel are important or interesting angles/observations I make. The trouble is that often when trying to convey a message it is very easy to sound trite... or forced/contrived. I read once that David Byrne used to go to the supermarket and jot down random stuff he heard and use it for songs... Don't know if that's true or not but certainly an interesting approach.

[MrYellow]

Bobby McFerrin - Beyond Words

Compelation of all his tracks that feature no words, just syllables.


I do tend to get caught in the drums too...... but being a bass player I
kinda need them, working backwards from a bass groove would be a bit
much sometimes.

-Ben

[Winterpark]

on the lyrics front -

I was once privelidged to spy on a famous female vocalist writing new material in what I thought was an unusual way. I later found that many people do it the same way .. just perhaps not so extreme.

the way.

First - when you have you melody - sing it in a mad mess of sylables - apparently (from the recent linked Eno BBC interview) )Bono calls his mad language 'bongolese' . "Snoo de bao , fram panas to bo godomo" etc.

Eno said that the 'ensmallment comes when we try to fit meaning to our pure musical vocalisations', he bemoaned the tendancy to try and make some poor quality sense - "baby I love you " etc.

This 'famous female vocalist' friend of mine bypassed the "baby I love you" by simply raiding the bookshelves for random books and looking for words that phonetically matched her crazy phonetic language.
ty ne pi yo = "tiny pillow"

It certainly explains why her records sound like they do (ie mystifying), but the technique does work to break down the 'logical brain' hijacking the creative process.

that's cool! i wanna know who your 'famous female vocalist' is!

and speaking of non-sensical word vocalizations... Sigur Ros... sooo good.

[Dai]

Great post, here are my tips.

1. Stop playing the loop before it becomes repetive:
I also write on the guitar where playing require voluntary moves. In Live, something will play over and over until you tell it to stop, it can begin to stick in your head. Once that happens you need to leave it until you can't remember what it sounds like anymore. Then you have fresh ears when you hear it again.

2. Create some completely fresh loops in the same Live session; using the same, or similar instuments and time signature. Often times if you approach the same instruments and time signature in a completely novel way then you might suddenly find that the two things link up in an unexpected way.

3. Find a musician friend to listen to your work in progess. I once played a 70% finished song to a drummer and he got an incredible bass idea, which was just a note sliding in the intro but it really ADDED to the song, I beleive that synergy between two people really helps. Like 1+1=3

[telekom]

Well, you are sort of breaking rule #1 of songwriting. Never start with the beat. The reason you should start with anything else (like a bassline, or a simple chord progression) is because a musical riff can be interpretted a number of ways in the beat realm, so you could come up with mulitple beats to match it. The other side of this however is that if you create a beat, your head is biologically locked into that rhythym so you are only thinking in the one frame of that beat.

Making a good beat is also very time consuming, so you essentially waste all your creative drive on one portion of the song. It's easier to lay frame work with the melody and adjust it later because with beats, they are addictive so you don't want to change them after spending alot of time on them. A musician is much more inclined to adapt the song to drums than change them. I think it's some kind of weird thing from our genetics where we are mesmorized by drums

Hope this helps out a litte

-Pi

also, i'm not just making this up. it was actually brought up in a recent interview with Royksopp in the UK mag Future Music, and is often mentioned alot of the "how to write a song" books.

Don't agree with any of this at all squareve. If you're making rhythmic music, (which some here certainly are) there is no reason not to start with a rhythmic element. If you have an idea for a song, it might grow from a djembe rhythm, a lyric, a melodic vocal line, a funky bass, a piano chord or the sound of a building falling down. I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it. I just don't think you can prescribe the method, even if it is mentioned in books. Some songs will grow from rhythms, some from melodies and so on. A good songwriter will try to repond creatively and honestly to WHATEVER stimuli. I think that is what we all have to learn to do, to be inventive and respond to all sorts of beginnings. I would hope that the initiator of this thread is able to feel that he or she can start off a song with any element and not feel tied to one method.

I think this holds particularly true for Live, since it offers such a range of options in how you do things. I hope Live inspires others like it inspires me - where I feel I never have to stick to a method or an approved technique for composing.

As for beats being time consuming - pants. Is it quicker to make beats after you've done a melody than before? I don't think you can say that. Plus, if rhythm is an essential part of your song you could perhaps do with spending time getting it right. Not everything can or should be quick, even with something so intuitive as Live.


My 2p

[montrealbreaks]

Here's a trick for composition... Mirror the structure of a song in the arrange view. Simply put 'er in, and play along. You'll end up duplicating the key and groove too, so choose something that is the same "feel" as what you're trying to write.

Also, check this:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19254

[boyinabox]

I have several times found myself writing along with songs or just playing lead parts to a tune thats on and i thought at the time i could have recorded it but assumed it was sort of stealing it

I think there is no real definitive answer but just develop your own style and way of working whatever suites you best i think i will over the next few (period of time)
work on a number of ways of writing ive been messing around with ableton a lot and its just growing and growing on me all the time you can do a lot with it and you can route stuff which i dint realise what then was about untill today. and all the plugins and instruments and effects make this a truely enlightning experience. I used to use fruity loops a lot but moved to Mac at work and am a convert mac head so live fits right in with my philosophy (spell check please) which is easy to use effective results and limitless.

Cheers.

[Angstrom]

I have several times found myself writing along with songs or just playing lead parts to a tune thats on and i thought at the time i could have recorded it but assumed it was sort of stealing it
.

John Lennon did this loads

In radio interviews, some of which have not been heard for decades, Lennon admits: 'Especially in the early years I would often write a melody, a lyric in my head to some other song because I can't write music. So I would carry it around as somebody else's song and then change it when I got down to putting it on paper or tape - consciously change because I knew somebody's going to sue me or everybody's going to say "what a rip-off".'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/sto ... 13,00.html

and most people consider the Beatles to be great songwriters.

John Sebastian of The Lovin' Spoonful, whose 'Daydream' is on the jukebox, says: 'A few years ago a friend of mine sent me this recorded tape of the Beatles rehearsing, and there is this fragment where John is working his way through "Daydream". There were a couple of problems, and if you listen carefully you can hear him say, 'Damn tunesmiths!'

'Sir Paul graciously said that "Daydream" played heavily in the creation of "Good Day Sunshine"

[MrYellow]

I have a mate who plays a LOT of pop....... I mean a LOT!

He has hundreds of CDs of flash in the pan artists along with big ones....
All pop shit.... some of it interesting, most of it boring.

At least half of it is rips of older better songs with new lyrics and new instrumentation.

-Ben

[DeadlyKungFu]

good artists copy
great artists steal

Electronica provides a unique chance to come up with original ideas through 'happy accidents' but for the most part, original thoughts are extremely rare.

Then there's sampling... done poorly it's pretty pathetic, done correctly it'll break your neck!