Max For Live Vendors?

[madlab]

This is definitely drifting OT but to a really interesting direction. About the very sparse programming skills on maxforlive : I am a newcomer to max. Not coming with a programming background, I've worked really hard for one year now, aside what feeds me, to get a grip on what I consider to be a wonderful creative tool. The Live.api was the most difficult part for me. Recently, after a request from a DJ friend who had a set approaching 1000 scenes, I've made a device called Scene name explorer to search the scene names using a keyword and select the first one containing this word. I've posted this device on Ableton's and Cycling's M4L forum, asking for people to test it and, for those with sufficient knowledge, to have a look at the patching and give constructive advice to optimize it. But got no answers, even if I bumped the topic 2 or 3 times. So, after a while, I posted it on maxforlive.com because I think this can be useful to some, as it will be for me for my theater / dance work. There, I also asked for people to comment the patching technique but got no answer. So, how can I learn properly ? I spend a lot of time visiting the Cycling's forum, downloading and trying to understand the logic of every bit of patch when I think the topic can interest me and isn't out of my reach (and even when it is ). Spent a good time on the book by Cipriani and Giri. Next month, I'll make two round trips of 2000km to attend workshops with Mathieu Chamagne to learn more. The max users community has been really amazing at helping my sincere efforts to learn. Sometimes, this isn't enough.

[ned rush]

i'll say this now. i will sell The Knobulator.

but there will be a free lite version.

[toscanini]

Hey,

I've been totally enjoying reading this thread,
I'll be an apologist of DIY here. Many people are satisfied with Ableton as it is. Those who are not, I cannot understand why they wouldn't want to go for total freedom, and would instead, assimilate an extra set of rules some other guy dictated. At the moment you say "I like this but I wish it would work a bit differently instead", you should start modding, and if you know how to mod with m4l, you basically know how to build from scratch. Unlike with Reaktor, for example.
As for my own experience somehow I have never gotten into downloading and using other peoples' devices. I guess I had unsatisfying experiences, not understanding what a device was supposed to do, or why it wouldn't work... but it has more to do with the fact that asking questions (and sometimes giving answers) on the forums in the form of patches is much easier and a better fun. My first serious project was realized as a collaboration in this forum. I have got plenty of help and in terms of a working method it really got me convinced. Of course it requires some basic knowledge, namely being able to copypaste into an empty device... But I don't want to criticize anybody, I was ready to invest a huge amount of my time into m4l, something I cannot expect from all users.
Just a last thought about quality and reliability: take the example of Max Api ADial. A M4L device as official and canonic as it can only get, with an entire line of other devices based on it. What it does is that it lets you control different parameters of your live set with the same controller. But: at the moment you change the control target, your new target's value jumps to the value of the controller. How anti-musical is that? It should happen the other way round, the main controller should jump to the new target's value. This would be really easy to program, and as a bonus, if you use an external controller, you would take advantage of Live's native soft takeover feature, one of the really powerful Live features IMO. Only: Api ADial is programmed in Javascript. I don't know javascript, do you? So it is easier (and really not too hard at all) to rebuild the whole thing. Without javascript. Without the bpatchers in your way. With the possibility to save the connections with presets.
Api ADial, a good reliable pro device? I don't think so, not in its current form. But hey, no big deal. Change it!

[ned rush]

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
214.3occO0zqBCBD7L7qfP7X0z5mMd689a7hwPQTw.ruTVSZz3+c6RKFOnbX
HyLrLydmyjMPmIJEaE+IXr6bFKIQBrQNS5UcZmJldlTCduIfxhAOzzgI8Iim
rw+JTe1FNsu0nwg.ppWNqrPLutjtVTkXDQrKOTqI1+4JzBAZlpQ8vUuM3LX7
cQ6gTvPykoqxodDBXP4MImeZsJm3WvcHa2bRCNncnNkyVsonGmSvBBpqd0j9
DgqXNxxOzu2Wr0zlr7qqE0pn8VpUq6sI0GbNAhc7G7m.MEdVLC
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

[madlab]

Ned, I tried to automate your device to make cash flow to my pockets but it didn't work. Opened the inspector and turned modulation to 'bipolar', and even 'absolute', thinking that would make me the new Steve Jobs (I work on a mac), without success. Instead, I still work day and night for litterally nothing. WTF with this patch ? Aaaah, ok... Just read your statement about your status being 'indie punk dev'.

[ned rush]

Just having a laugh innit.

[braduro]

madlab-sorry to hear that you're getting radio silence on the boards, but it sounds like you're diligent enough that you are going to get your answers on your own terms. To let you and Toscanini sense where I'm coming from-there's probably a vast consumerist mass that also fits into my demographic:

I have basic Object Oriented, UML computer science coursework behind me. I'm not Mr. Javascript nor Python, but I should know how to work in M4L. I've used some legacy adaptable audio engines, know a little java, c. That's not the issue. Like every programming language, it really comes down to "what do you want to do about it?" or "what do you have to say?"

I do have a few things to say in m4l, but not much, and I'm not up to speed yet in any case. I have most of my scripts in clyphx and I bought m4l in that sales push last winter after enjoying some pre-made devices. I don't do much "realized" game-rules sound installation work, I don't produce in Ableton, rarely compose even (although that might change, just for promotional pressures. My writing up to now has been in an entirely different venue than what I use ableton for).

I'm among the few hold-outs that use ableton for laptop djing, live remixing, and that's about it. (ableton lost a lot of dj market share, I think, with the advent of competitors and version 8-all it's crashes initially, studio bent, etc) I haven't even arrived at, "Instead, this patch should work like..." I'll get there. I have no objection to using a classic-in-the-making device, even if everyone else is using it, if I can actually develop skills to get better at using it and there's musicality in using it. Good point on ADial, for example. I'm a bit more adventurist with my controllers, but the same principles apply.

Including facts like not needing a screen-name to download, or that the descriptions are often abysmal, and in themselves warrant our support to private developers who can budget some time to document what they are doing and illustrate how to use their device:
If you look at the numbers of downloads who probably don't even have a sign-in name on maxforlike.com, nor turned around to say "thank you" you can probably imagine they know about as much as I do about making things in m4l. So don't loose heart. It's simply that there's a big leap from learning ableton and tearing down the fence to make autonomous creative statements, with or without one's own constraints. It really a rare gift that some folks have-so embrace it!

[salatspinatra]

Man, what I would do to have Hadron not suck the life blood out of my old dj laptop. It's just a fascinating device, and the preset strategy that these guys outlined in a scientific paper is worth understanding.

Are the isotonic modular utilities going to hit my CPU as hard? I'm guessing not nearly.
How CPU-intensive are the beatwife m4l in-line devices, not the standalone version? (BTW, that's such a horrid business name, I'm not even sure I'd buy it, unless the results were utterly redeeming, as in Prodigy "Smack My Bitch Up" catchy.)

[S4racen]

Are the isotonic modular utilities going to hit my CPU as hard? I'm guessing not nearly.
How CPU-intensive are the beatwife m4l in-line devices, not the standalone version? (BTW, that's such a horrid business name, I'm not even sure I'd buy it, unless the results were utterly redeeming, as in Prodigy "Smack My Bitch Up" catchy.)

The Modular Devices have a tiny footprint and ones like the Looper turn themselves off when inactive...

Personally i loved the Hadron stuff, it acted as an inspiration for me to really polish up my devices and rewrite many of them from scratch... I keep doing that as i learn newer and better ways of achieving things...

Cheers
D

[salatspinatra]

Putting in my order, S4racen, thanks for doing what you do. I'm inferring that Follow has its own development cycle. These really look very utilitarian, and immediately speak to my style of playing.

Yeah, I love the Hadron too. Manageable controls out in the open, hugely versatile, inspiring sound. Just need to streamline some of my other processing and get a new computer if I ever use it live...