Going Live - what might i need to add to my setup live perf.

[modecai]

Hi everybody,

I've been crafting songs in my bedroom for quite a while. Now I want to take them live. Right now, I'm concerned about how I hook up my interface to the pa. I have played one show before, and someone else did it for me haha. I'll cut to the chase and list what I'm doing. If you have any advice let me know. I also will include info on how I set up my set incase anybody has any advice.

Gear I'm using:
-Launchpad
-Live 8 suite
-Mpk Mini
-Micron
-Edirol Fa-101 firewire interface
-possibly a monome.

Process:

-I take a song, and bounce it down to 6-8 stems. (ie.. drums, synth 1 , synth 2, keys, bass etc) (got the idea from tom cosm)
-i chop up the song and load it into the session view... usually a max of 5 structured scenes for each part... the songs aren't typically structured pop songs... but definitely have at least a part A and Part B to them.
-I add clips throughout the scenes so that I can improvise with stuff... ie, adding extra drums, and effecting them etc etc
-ie. i might have a glitchy drone before a song starts, do all kinds of manipulating it with Live's effects and then start adding in the first verse/ intro/ whatever. Makes it more fun that way.
-I use a mic (sm 57, or rode m3) going into the mic input of the FA-101.
-I make a vocal track, and monitor in, so that I can glitch up/effect my vocals.
-I use a single send with different effect racks on it, and toggle through them with my launchpad... each bottom on the bottom row of user 2 , when pressed, will toggle send A for each respective track, and lower the volume at the same time. The return is set to "pre" so that I still hear it with the volume down. This way I don't get tracks through the track itself AND the sends.
-so I can send 8 tracks individually or simultaneously to a return with different efx racks that I can turn on and off, and move through them with my launchpad (thanks to mots launchpad script). This is nice, but obviously limiting - if I want one track to go through the delay efx another through the beat repeat, I can't have both... but it's limiting in a good way in that I won't go nuts trying to effect everything at once and do too much)
-then I have a alesis micron going through 2 of 8 line ins on the back.
-I will also use my mpk mini probably for either a rack of switchable drums, or midi synths (although I'd prefer to use the micron to save processing power)
-that's about it....

now... i'm wandering how I should go about connecting the main outs to the pa...
-should I just use two 1/4" cables and send them all the way back to the sound system if I were to play in a venue?
-do I need a di box, to take take the 1/4" and turn them into xlrs?
-should i get a secondary cheap mixer... just like a 2 channel behringer to move signals around?

any help/advice/comments would be much appreciated!!

Thanks!

[moonpie]

Well - at any gigs Ive played, EVEN when I make clear weeks in advance that the engineer understands I have 2 1/4 inch balanced leads going from my interface and he needs too free d.i. boxes, they'll still throw a face on the day when I turn up without my own. (Of course if its a small venue with the mixer *right* beside the stage my leads will reach - otherwise Im reliant on the engineer having a d.i.) So - you will definitely need d.i.'s for every output. You want to cover every eventuality. Its too risky not to - engineers are an fickle breed. (You only need passive d.i. since you have line level signal - but in general people buy active d.i. anyway as the price point isnt that far away from passive, and youll have more uses for an active one in future - like recording bass etc. The behringer ones are cheap, great and sturdy apparently)

A small analog mixer between your interface and the two d.i. will offer you an extra degree of control and predictability should everything go haywire - Its always nice to have something simple and analog between your computer and other hardware. Also - a big benefit - if your set is mixed well in advance - any tweaking youll have to do to set gain levels to the engineer wont be on a computer, itll be on the mixer. This keeps you from dicking around on a computer with levels in the dark during a very speedy and stressful soundcheck. Every venue is different, every engineer is different and every mixer is different - some want more gain - others want less - just do it through a small analog mixer.

Lastly - consider this - 2 outputs may not be ideal. Instead of thinking of it in "stereo" (if you are) - think of it as - what control should you give the engineer - as you have no idea what you will sound like front of house. Generally - the consensus is - give them bass and drums separate if possible to the rest of the mix. If they dont sound good - your set will fall flat (depending on your style of music) - theyll be far better able to judge what to do with the bass and drums depending on the size of room, the PA speakers etc. The more outs you use, the more control they have - but you dont want to give them everything as they wont know how you like each part balanced - so youll have to figure out whats most important to get right every night. I remember jamming in a practice room with my band, upped the bass synth to get the right balance for a big part - tried it on the night during soundcheck - IT WAS LOUD. The look on the engineers face. Had to adjust the fader. Obviously venue had better working speakers than the crappy practice room.

[modecai]

thanks for the reply moonpie... that's definitely some useful information...

so does a DI basically just convert the signal so that it can be outputted as an xlr? How is this helpful? Does it reduce noise?

[Muzik 4 Machines]

i offer the PA guy to either get a full stereo mix or a full stereo mix minus kick and bass+ mono bass and mono kick sends(still post volume to make sure that if i fade the bass the fade will be heard as intended, but still allowing the PA guy to adjust the balance of the kick and bass to suit the room (if i were to play bigger gigs, i'd send mono kick, mono bass, full stereo drums minus kick, full stereo instruments minus bass and mono vocal/talkbox/vocoder)
(i have 18 outs in my system( 8 xlr, 8 balanced 1/4 and 2 unable 1/4), 6 of them already being used for my kaoss pads/nord external fx, 2 for my own output/recording (full stereo mix) 2 for the stereo mix for really small venues where i'm effetively the PA guy at the same time

[bosonHavoc]

thanks for the reply moonpie... that's definitely some useful information...

so does a DI basically just convert the signal so that it can be outputted as an xlr? How is this helpful? Does it reduce noise?

this should give you a good idea
http://www.astralsound.com/di-boxes.htm

I agree with pretty much everything posted with the exception of don't by a crappy d.i. box.
get a good one..
also i prefer passive so i don't need to worry about batteries or teaching the sound engineer how to turn on phantom power (seriously lol)

I love my radial stereo D.I. its probably the best made piece of gear I own.
and so worth the money...
Its pretty safe to count on getting two mono d.i.'s from the house.
I always carry 2 balanced 1/4 to xlr for back up, and lots of adapters.

I also bring my sub mixer out allot too, its good to have one.
so if needed you can patch everything in your submixer then send stereo to the board and have full control.

another thing i value is my Roland kc500 its saved my butt on a few occasions and I also bring it with me when i am unsure of the stage sound. having a good monitor can be key to an awesome performance, especially if you play fret-less instruments or sing.
in ears are nice too.

another tip.. don't put your laptop in front of you, put it of to the side
the laptop sucks up all the energy transfer between you and the crowed.
i find it way easier to get into my music and connect wit the crowed when i don't touch my laptop and have it out of my way.
plus people can see you doing stuff.
(unless your a DJ hidden in a both then it doesn't matter)

[modecai]

so how about a stereo mixer... like a small behringer one or whatever... then send the main outs to one of these?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DI20.aspx

I actually have a DI20 at home that I could use, if its not broken... or could I take the stereo output of my fa-101 and send both 1/4" outs to the two inputs of the di 20?

[EddieJ]

Just a note from a former front of house guy: if your sound card already outputs a balanced (+, -, gnd), you might just need an adapter to turn your TRS F to XLR M.

[modecai]

ie: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Live-Wire-X ... 1171936.gc ?

edit: roland's website says the FA-101 has "8x8 balanced analog I/O" so I guess I don't need a DI box?

[moonpie]

ie: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Live-Wire-X ... 1171936.gc ?

edit: roland's website says the FA-101 has "8x8 balanced analog I/O" so I guess I don't need a DI box?

Yeah - youve already balanced outs - the point of the mixer is - youll have immediate hardware fader control over various output levels (using an analog mixer), instead of doing it solely by software. I was advising its prob best to have analog control, just from a stability/predictability point of view.

I guess the info you want to know is - not just whats the minimum amount of stuff you need to get things done (which is very little - you almost have everything you need) - but whats the best stage setup to have that you can rest easy after soundcheck before you play.

The idea of the passive/active d.i. is to change a balanced trs signal to an xlr. (your signal will already be line level so it doesnt really need an active - just the price diff is negligible so itll have more future uses) Now IMHO (and feel free to think Im wrong about this! EddieJ might think so) but with the live wire - to me it looks like a quite an expensive and small piece to rely on in mission critical situations - i.e. the type of thing you will lose alot. Just from a practical viewpoint - you unlikely to miss your d.i. box on stage, know if everything is connected correctly, packing it up at the end of the night etc/not getting confused with engineers equipment. Your behringer di isnt the best one (no offence - its hit and miss with behringer!) - this one however - http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHDI100 is the one I was talking about. Although youll need one for every output.... (unless you splurge on a multi input/output di - depends which one - always check online user reviews 1st).

Anyways - thats just my 2 cents - something to think over!

[modecai]

Thanks, that's some really good advice.

What about this?

If I took my two main outputs from the fa-101 and sent them into a mixer... and then too the two main outputs of that ... and put into a di box... and then went to the house pa?

I mean... Technically, I could send my main outs from my FA-101 straight to the house mixer right? Like... let's say the mixer is at the back of the room and I was on stage... I could send two trs all the way back there and it would work? Does it need to be converted into a XlR to go into a board? or can it be a line input trs jack?

I mean... my lack of knowledge here is probably pretty evident... i'm guessing most venues don't run your cables straight through the floor where people stand/dance whatever... so would most decent venues use a snake on stage... and then that would go into their mixer somewhere else (like at the back) ... right now i'm imagining a venue local to me and that's how I imagine it from the times i've gone to shows there...

-So like... if it is a snake... it would have to use xlr i guess right?
-I also want to know... that if I have balanced outs on my fa-101... if there is an option just to send it to something over trs cables, if i should do it anyways. Sorry this is getting confusing and hard to explain..
-i guess I'm asking, should I use a di box to convert the final stereo output to xlr even though the outputs are balanced?

Good point about having a mixer to control levels anyways... maybe I should do that so I don't have to control the volume of signals through my launchpad/ableton's mixer... not sure though cause I have quite a few stereo sources, and that would take a lot of cables...

thanks guys! keep 'em coming if you have any more advice.

[moonpie]

Thanks, that's some really good advice.

What about this?

If I took my two main outputs from the fa-101 and sent them into a mixer... and then too the two main outputs of that ... and put into a di box... and then went to the house pa?

I mean... Technically, I could send my main outs from my FA-101 straight to the house mixer right? Like... let's say the mixer is at the back of the room and I was on stage... I could send two trs all the way back there and it would work? Does it need to be converted into a XlR to go into a board? or can it be a line input trs jack?

I mean... my lack of knowledge here is probably pretty evident... i'm guessing most venues don't run your cables straight through the floor where people stand/dance whatever... so would most decent venues use a snake on stage... and then that would go into their mixer somewhere else (like at the back) ... right now i'm imagining a venue local to me and that's how I imagine it from the times i've gone to shows there...

-So like... if it is a snake... it would have to use xlr i guess right?
-I also want to know... that if I have balanced outs on my fa-101... if there is an option just to send it to something over trs cables, if i should do it anyways. Sorry this is getting confusing and hard to explain..
-i guess I'm asking, should I use a di box to convert the final stereo output to xlr even though the outputs are balanced?

Good point about having a mixer to control levels anyways... maybe I should do that so I don't have to control the volume of signals through my launchpad/ableton's mixer... not sure though cause I have quite a few stereo sources, and that would take a lot of cables...

thanks guys! keep 'em coming if you have any more advice.

Okay - this is basically it -

An engineer will have many inputs on his mixer. Both 1/4inch and xlr. But - he will have lots of massive 50ft or bigger xlr cables that reach the stage (and may already run the lenght of the room) and probably has zero balanced trs cables as he never uses them. (just so you know - balanced trs 1/4inch and xlr are the exact same type of cable - both are "balanced", just one has xlr connections on each end and the other has trs.) So all his xlr cables run up onto the stage - 99% will connect directly to all the mics ons stage. Then - the most normal situation an engineer will encounter where a d.i. is useful is if a bassist doesnt want to use his amp, and wants to run directly into the PA - easier for the engineer to mix/minimal diff in sound - all good - except the bassist has a normal 1/4inch instrument lead. So the bassist needs a way to connect his instrument to the mixer at the end of the room - the easiest way being to convert his trs jack to an xlr with a d.i, to make use of the mountains of xlrs the engineer has at his disposal. The bassist's signal wont be loud enough (instrument level) for the mixer, so they use an active d.i. to boost the signal up to line level before it reaches the mixer.

So for electronic musicians - engineers are generally low on d.i.s as they figure theyll only need them for bass or max 2 instruments. But you cant guarantee theyll bring them on a certain night, or they assume you had them with you for the amount of outs you need. Also - the level coming out of your interface (and mixer) IS the loud level the engineer expects (line level) so you only need a way to convert your trs to xlr and dont have to worry at all about line level. A passive d.i. will do. An active d.i. will do that too (with the added benefit that in the future you ever need to record/play live bass you have one).

"-i guess I'm asking, should I use a di box to convert the final stereo output to xlr even though the outputs are balanced?"

Well - youll HAVE to convert the final output to xlr. End of. (unless the engineer's mixer is as close to the stage as the lenght of your 1/4inch leads!!) So youve a choice - you can use the "Live Wire" connection things, or a d.i. .I was advising a d.i. for the reasons in my previous post.

[modecai]

Excellent... that clears up a lot of things.

I'll def experiment with the dual behringer DI... test out the quality, hopefully try to emulate how a live setup would work instead of finding out when I do play haha.

Thanks a lot everybody, y'all rule.

[Tysonviolin]

For every 1/4" trs output get
One of these
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ISOBLOX
and one of these
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BPBQXM20/

And you are gold
There is no need for a di box but you very well might need transformer isolation

[EddieJ]

We're discussing two different concepts: line level vs mic level and balanced vs unbalanced.
I think it's worth understanding why we use balanced signals to help understand what it means.
A typical audio signal is sent via a two conductor cable (signal and shield). The shield doubles as a ground (earth for those who prefer), and it helps to protect your signal from electro magnetic interference. This simpler transmission method is used on instrument outputs, cd outputs, ipods, etc.
Over a long distance, these cables will pick up more and more interference which will result in poor audio. The answer to this dilemma is to "balance" the signal. The components of a balanced signal are the +, -, and ground. This signal is transmitted via a twisted pair to assist in noise rejection. The - signal is identical to the + signal, except it is 180° out of phase. Over a long run, both the + and - signals will experience EM interference. When the signal reaches the console, the - signal is phase inverted and summed with the + signal. Any EM interference present will be summed 180° out of phase and canceled.
A direct box takes an unbalanced signal and balances it by using a special transformer. If you plug a balanced TRS into a direct box, your - signal will simply be grounded out and your + will be treated as an unbalanced signal and subsequently balanced by the transformer. This extra conversion is not necessarily harmful, but it is unnecessary. If you have balanced outputs, you merely need adapter cables.

[modecai]

so if i am using a DI box with balanced cables... i need a special adapter anyways? Is that what Tyson Violin is referring to?