This device alone makes Max4Live worth it...

[ze2be]

"Almost nothing has been invented yet!"

If you haven't heard that quote before, check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF9G9M0cR0E
Yeah that is right.. Forrest Raves without the noise pollution and no cops to bother you. Apartment studios anybody?

Ive herd talks about it. Great to finally see it in progress!
And yeah, cutting the noise poison out of the forest raves is the goal (in many ways)

[Benshik]

I originally got Max for Live for one very specific type of device, but unfortunately have been so busy that I haven't been able to get deep enough into it yet.

Luckily Hoffman2K has been busy making very cool stuff though and made some devices that were very similar to what I had in mind, and with a gentle nudge, even modified his original device to be even more towards what I was after (I like to think of myself as a "consultant" in this matter Actually more like a pest though).

Ever wish you assign macros to a group channel track from the devices in the child tracks? I've wished it ever since Live introduced group tracks. Ever wish you could tweak a whole bunch of parameters and then hit a button to make all those parameters jump back to some stored setting? I sure have. Or what about being able to morph between two presets like you can with Kore? Or having a device with more than 8 macros?

Well these are very possible now with Max for Live and Hoffman2k has made this little beauty that I think really demonstrates what useful devices can be made and I thought I'd call attention to it for those who aren't really sure about what's going on in the Max for Live world:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... &start=180

This device went through a few different versions, starting with Clipmapper, which let you assign parameters from any track to the device and store those parameters with a clip, so triggering different clips brought up a different set of parameters on the devices controls. Then the 16 macros device came along, which permanently assigned parameters from other devices to it's macro dials. The amazing thing with this is that there is either an audio effect or midi effect version, so you could put it before a device or on a group track, and you can put many of them in series. So you could have a whole whack of tracks in a group and assign whatever parameters you want from those to this device on the master group track for easy access with an APC40 or Remote SL or whatever automapping device you have. Very very useful! The newest version in the thread posted above is Snapshot morpher which can store snapshots of the parameter values which can be recalled by the (midi-mappable) button, or morphed between two snapshots. So what I would do with the APC40 for example, would be to map the "load" button to a spare hardware button, like solo (not needed for performance), and then when I need my parameters to revert to some default state, I just hit that button. And then the morphing is just cool, a single knob to mutate between two presets.

To me this kind of thing just solved many of my problems/wishes in Live: I can group tracks but still be able to use automap easily with those, I can have a snapshot button and also have more than 8 macros and morph between settings.

Hoffman2k was also kind enough to post a tutorial on some of the techniques he used in coding these devices:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=141249

Hey Hoffman, I just went to covert ops site looking for a donate button but didn't see one!

M4L is deep
So, whats the device? Could you describe it in a few concise words?

[Poster]

Reaktor: Right click - Built-in module -> Math -> Constant -> Properties -> then type value
Max: 'm' -> then type value

while I agree that Max is superior in the whole math department adding constants in Reaktor can be done quicker..

Right click on In port -> Create Constant -> Properties -> then type value
and this way it's even already connected to the port..

[3dot...]

reaktor is for dsp heads...

max is for people with control issues...

[hoffman2k]

reaktor is for dsp heads...

max is for people with control issues...

I realize I'm stepping in a minefield here. But wouldn't this whole Reaktor vs Max thing go away if somebody made some bpatchers that looked like Reaktor elements?
Max doesn't come with the type of modules people are familiar with in Reaktor, but you could make it easier for people to build devices. I suppose people are just too busy actually using the software opposed to making it more user-friendly.

[hoffman2k]

I originally got Max for Live for one very specific type of device, but unfortunately have been so busy that I haven't been able to get deep enough into it yet.

Luckily Hoffman2K has been busy making very cool stuff though and made some devices that were very similar to what I had in mind, and with a gentle nudge, even modified his original device to be even more towards what I was after (I like to think of myself as a "consultant" in this matter Actually more like a pest though).

Ever wish you assign macros to a group channel track from the devices in the child tracks? I've wished it ever since Live introduced group tracks. Ever wish you could tweak a whole bunch of parameters and then hit a button to make all those parameters jump back to some stored setting? I sure have. Or what about being able to morph between two presets like you can with Kore? Or having a device with more than 8 macros?

Well these are very possible now with Max for Live and Hoffman2k has made this little beauty that I think really demonstrates what useful devices can be made and I thought I'd call attention to it for those who aren't really sure about what's going on in the Max for Live world:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... &start=180

This device went through a few different versions, starting with Clipmapper, which let you assign parameters from any track to the device and store those parameters with a clip, so triggering different clips brought up a different set of parameters on the devices controls. Then the 16 macros device came along, which permanently assigned parameters from other devices to it's macro dials. The amazing thing with this is that there is either an audio effect or midi effect version, so you could put it before a device or on a group track, and you can put many of them in series. So you could have a whole whack of tracks in a group and assign whatever parameters you want from those to this device on the master group track for easy access with an APC40 or Remote SL or whatever automapping device you have. Very very useful! The newest version in the thread posted above is Snapshot morpher which can store snapshots of the parameter values which can be recalled by the (midi-mappable) button, or morphed between two snapshots. So what I would do with the APC40 for example, would be to map the "load" button to a spare hardware button, like solo (not needed for performance), and then when I need my parameters to revert to some default state, I just hit that button. And then the morphing is just cool, a single knob to mutate between two presets.

To me this kind of thing just solved many of my problems/wishes in Live: I can group tracks but still be able to use automap easily with those, I can have a snapshot button and also have more than 8 macros and morph between settings.

Hoffman2k was also kind enough to post a tutorial on some of the techniques he used in coding these devices:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=141249

Hey Hoffman, I just went to covert ops site looking for a donate button but didn't see one!

M4L is deep
So, whats the device? Could you describe it in a few concise words?

In 2 words: Preset Morpher.
You can create a snapshot of 16 "Macros" and store that as a preset. You can have multiple snapshots and you can morph between any 2 presets.

Its a variation on another device called: Clip Mapper. Which allows you to assign 16 "macros" to a clip. Each clip can have its own 16 "macros" which can be recalled by triggering the clip. This means you can control a whole Live Set from 16 knobs/buttons on your MIDI controller.

[3dot...]

that's actually a GREAT idea...
although there are some built-in modules that would be pretty hard to duplicate

hehe.. can you make the sockets on the left and right sides of the bpatcher ? probly not..
maybe if you could turn your whole patch on it's side...

as for the whole Reaktor vs. Max thing...I think there's no comparing really... 2 different beasts altogether

some differences that experienced using both

imo Reaktor patches are more readable....
but... the Reaktor documentation is horrible to say the least.
big max patches tend to get too confusing to read...

Reaktor tends to take less cpu than max...for a more or less equivalent patch
(say oscillator through a filter and a volume envelope)

but... max is much more open ended... and imo easier to patch/create with

max (or at least m4l) suffers from inconsistencies that sometimes make debugging impossible
..but I believe that's a temporary thing
also .. m4l functionality is highly crippled which is sad

Reaktor does 'feel' more mature for what it does..
max 'feels' all over the place sometimes..

aside from that.. for some unexplainable reason...
Reaktor user-patches ...usually sound better..
I do not have an explanation for that..

but I don't see a problem using both.. as Max can easily host Reaktor..

[hoffman2k]

I suppose its a matter of time. You can't expect a 1.0 of anything to be on par with the Reaktor users content. I suppose it would be equivalent to Reaktor shipping with just the building blocks for its modules.
They're 2 different beasts indeed.

[3dot...]

yep yep...

[Poster]

I suppose people are just too busy actually using the software opposed to making it more user-friendly.

as I said earlier, the biggest issue I'm having is the lack of port and object labels..

If they want to make Max more friendly for new users they have to find a way to make objects more descriptive..

the two upper images are both a comb filter, one in Max the other Reaktor..
I have no clue what the ports in Max do..
sure I can hover the ports and get a description, but 5 minutes later I don't really recall what was what..

And this is even a very simple example where it even says Comb, so I know it's a comb filter,
but with some bpatchers it's written function can be totally non-descriptive..




imho Max is still way too academic.. it just expects you to know every object the moment you drop it or come across one..
And while I can see that if you use Max on a regular basis you eventually will learn all that,
for new users and/or users that don't patch on a daily/weekly basis it's a nightmare to get and stay into..
While the help files are really really good, the direct interface is just not helping you at all..

So where Max beats Reaktor with it's immediate patching flow, it at the same time eats a lot of time to again and again 'read' the patch structure..
I think that with Max 5 it was a good moment to rethink the approach to new users..
Something like a alternative structure view where you could view objects as in those two bottom images..

Max and Reaktor are both fantastic programs in their own right but Max really needs to change some things if they want to aim at other audiences..

[mdk]

I suppose its a matter of time. You can't expect a 1.0 of anything to be on par with the Reaktor users content. I suppose it would be equivalent to Reaktor shipping with just the building blocks for its modules.
They're 2 different beasts indeed.

right, and i think also max has typically been more of a realm for people building very individual pieces partly because it has such a wide scope, audio / video / controllers / anything you like because you can use a real programming language, whereas reaktor is very much focused on instruments and effects.

I hope M4L helps to increase the amount of instruments and fx we see, as well as the corresponding building blocks. although i do own both so on purely selfish terms it doesnt matter

actually thinking about it, it would be cool to integrate something like the maxforlive.com database directly into max so you could download and (upload) pieces directly from the site.

i feel a project coming on

[Hertz SM]

That's a very good example, Poster!

[hoffman2k]

I suppose people are just too busy actually using the software opposed to making it more user-friendly.

as I said earlier, the biggest issue I'm having is the lack of port and object labels..

If they want to make Max more friendly for new users they have to find a way to make objects more descriptive..

the two upper images are both a comb filter, one in Max the other Reaktor..
I have no clue what the ports in Max do..
sure I can hover the ports and get a description, but 5 minutes later I don't really recall what was what..

And this is even a very simple example where it even says Comb, so I know it's a comb filter,
but with some bpatchers it's written function can be totally non-descriptive..




imho Max is still way too academic.. it just expects you to know every object the moment you drop it or come across one..
And while I can see that if you use Max on a regular basis you eventually will learn all that,
for new users and/or users that don't patch on a daily/weekly basis it's a nightmare to get and stay into..
While the help files are really really good, the direct interface is just not helping you at all..

So where Max beats Reaktor with it's immediate patching flow, it at the same time eats a lot of time to again and again 'read' the patch structure..
I think that with Max 5 it was a good moment to rethink the approach to new users..
Something like a alternative structure view where you could view objects as in those two bottom images..

Max and Reaktor are both fantastic programs in their own right but Max really needs to change some things if they want to aim at other audiences..

In the example you show, if you right click on that (mono) comb filter object, you can bring up the help page. A help page in max is essentially a Max patch that demonstrates the object. You could paste it contents inside your device.
Believe me, I can't memorize all this stuff either.

The Reaktor object you show would look something like this in Max:



The help file for the comb object looks like this:



If something still isn't clear, you can use the reference guide.
If you learn how to use the help files, you already know 50% of what you need to know. If there's an object inside a help file that doesn't make sense, right-click it. It has a help file too.

I honestly don't think they'll ever change this to something more Reaktor like.
Encapsulated patches are identical in functionality to a reaktor module. But they look different and are different to operate.
Just out of curiosity, can you go inside that comb filter to see the building blocks?

[mdk]

looks like you can on that one because the icon is for a module (macro in reaktor speak)

what you'll find in there is anyones guess, could be built from the ground up using 'core' modules or it might be built from higher level inbuilt modules that you cant inspect the internals of.

[mdk]

one thing to add, the big plus with max is you can add your own labels easily, so you can stick text labels next to the inputs that make sense within context, not just 2 or 3 letter acronyms. bit of extra work to add them, sure, but you can always make a clipping of it for future use.